Ferro Cement Hulls?

[Alan Wheeler]

Actually I don't mind Jeff's comments. I think it is good to get all views. He does make some good points and certainly has the technical ability to throw around the numbers. The more info available, helps us all make the wise decisions. Plus, it offers good argument and criticism on both sides. When Jeff makes a comment, another may have a rebuttle that will shed some light from a different angle.
So here is my angle.
The major issue with FC that I see is the plastering. It is simply NOT a one man job. If the builder doesnot have access to skilled help at the plastering stage, he should not consider the FC as a practicle project. Apart from that, the FC boat has got to be one of the eaisest to build. You just have to follow the rules. But no more than say, mixing Resin correctly.
I don't believe this is, or ever has been any advantage to a proffesional builder. It's why Proffesional builders have never been able to make ago at it. It is the amature that has all the advantages. Even ones like Colin Brookes and other such names, do these projects in a "semi-pro" approach. Where they are building a boat as an individual in a sense. You simply can't build one economicaly in a boat yard situation with dozens of guy's standing around. There is not enough cost saving to be made on a Hull to warrant the process.
The biggest assets in FC that I see, is it's longevity, cheapness and ease of repair, strength of the hull.
FC boats are cheap because they were cheaper to build. They also tend to hold their price, even though that was low to begin with.

[CaptainK]

Well Wheels.

I can agree to a point with you about Jeff.

He may know some engineering stuff. Or just is mathetmatically inclined, to the point of being close to an engineer?

Yes. People could use all the angles. But, the constant bashing is very tiring? And I agree with you there also!!

But, if a person were to approach this intelligently? Then, using professional help in laying up a hull. Then there is very good potentinal, for a very good sound hull!!

Not following that, could invite disaster at a later time?

[Boracay]

When I had my boat plastered I employed a professional Italian plaster who had done several boats, but was normally a house plasterer. He arrived with a team of four workers and they did a fast fair competent job. This was two shot so they came back later to do the second shot, four weeks after the first had cured.
If there may be a problem with the experience of the plasterers then two (or even three) shot may be the way to go.
The two shot technique is very similar to the way a house is plastered in that the plasterer loads up his trowel with the right amount of "mud" and slams it into the armature(make sure that the armature is well braced!). A good plasterer can do this very well. The disadvantage in my case was that they did too good a job and little nobs appeared on the inside. It was a lengthy tedious job to cut them off but the result was a thin fair hull.
I did not use any joining substance. No problems were experienced.

[Jeff H]

Maybe I am wrong on this, but it is my belief that if this forum is to have meaning then a discussion should look at all sides of a topic and not just be a fan club, even if that means that someones sacred cow gets gored.

As to my comments above, which I admit, in hindsight, were too brief to be meaningful, when I saw that someone was talking about Bruce Roberts not selling plans for Ferrocement boats I was surprised because I have lofted a Bruce Roberts' design for a fellow planning to build it in ferrocement. I looked on the Bruce Roberts site and was surprised that Ferro was no longer listed there and I thought that the historical perspective would be helpful as well as supporting his decision.

I also made my comment because I think of the designs by Bruce Roberts as being the haven of amatuer builders looking for set of cheap drawings. (Yes I know some are professionally built). And I thought it might be helpful to comment on my experience with this material for amatuer construction. That could have been stated more clearly.

I don't know how many of you have ever been involved in actually building a ferro-cement boat, but compared to the building of fiberglass boats and wooden boats that I have been involved in ferro takes the most skill and the most time and frankly done properly saves little or no money. The last time that I was involved in a comparative cost estimate for the materials to properly build the form, buy the reinforcing and high grade cement to build a Ferro cement boat, vs the costs to either build a wooden boat or a glass boat, the Ferro boat was more time consuming and came in equal or more expensive.

The hull is a very small part of the cost of a boat, and carefully building an interior into a ferrocement boat proved much more difficult than other building technique. As has been pointed out above, I have discussed the engineering aspects of ferrocement else where so I won't get into that here but I did think that it is relevant to discuss build issues when the discussion turns to someone thinking of building in ferro.

I am sorry if some of you resent the fact that I am trying to provide a realistic, albeit counterpoint, personal perspective that comes from having sailed on, worked on designs for and having actually helped build boats in this material.

I won't have my feelings hurt if you choose to avert your eyes when you see one of my posts on this topic. And if you wish to refute my points, I would be glad to see divergent opinions. I would appresiate if you wished put up some numbers or describe your experience as Chris has. To me Chris's post clearly supports exactly what I was trying to say above about the skill level and manpower required to properly build a Ferrocement boat and made the point that frankly with as much skilled labor as he needed, he still did not end up building the boat in a single shot as is the generally recommended method for building a long lived, structurally sound ferrocement boat.

Respectfully,
Jeff

[CaptainK]

Well Jeff H.

It's nice that you are a architect and sometimes yacht designer.

And that's how come you could provide such a definitive argument against ferros?

Sure. Like I said earlier. There have been alot of shady people in the past taking too many shortcuts. While building a ferrocement boat.

By doing that. Well!! Like alot of us here on the forum. Have seen derelict abandoned ferro hulls sittting around. On many properties and backyards?

That's the price some people do pay. And yes. It's a damn shame that these people took those shortcuts. And many of these ferro's actually made it to the sea. And made many voyages before they realize their mistakes. By taking shortcuts. Improperly laying the cement over the wire mesh. Etc. Etc. .

I'm with you, on that disagreement there Jeff H. And I wouldn't steer you away from that thought. And my disagreement was more likely falling into the realm of trying to get you to ease up a little. But, ok. I understand a little better on where you're coming from.

And yes. Bruce Roberts used to deal with ferrocement boats, back in the heyday. But not in quite a good while? I have researched Bruce Roberts designs. I even ordered his boat building books. Quite good reading I do might add!!

But yes. I have had lengthy email letters with Bruce. And he and I had developed a little repertoire ther for a while. Because of all the constant emails going back and forth etc. etc. . So I have asked him that question about ferros. He never answered my email letter about that. I asked him again. Nothing? I guess, he just doesn't want to deal with that stuff no more!!

[NoTies]

One perspective I haven't seen mentioned in all of this is the "heart & soul" factor of building a boat yourself. Cue Frank Sinatra singing "My Way". Ferro may be time consuming but with some competent help with the plastering it seems to be within the realms of an amatuer to build.
I chose not to include ferro in my options for a first boat purchase because I wanted good resale value a year or 2 down the track when we have established exactly what we want & need in a boat. I will however be open to a good quality used ferro in the future for the "more boat per buck" factor amongst other things.

It is interesting the passion on both sides that conversations on ferro boats bring out. I have seen differnt forms of fiberglass, wod, composite, steel and aluminum discussed on the forum, but none have had the response that the numerous threads on ferro have. I guess ferro boats are either loved or loathed, but no inbetween.

[CaptainK]

I guess ferro boats are either loved or loathed, but no inbetween.

Exactly Kai. You answered alot about this topic in one sentence!!

[Alan Wheeler]

Hmmmmm, I think it's because they tend to get Loathed more than any other type, that the few people that have FC or believe in FC, tend to priase them more towards the other end of the spectrum.
I think it is important to maintain perspective from bothsides. I encourage Jeffs comments, as I have said, it brings about good discussion.
I think we all agree, there are good points and bad points on any material a boat is built from and it is good to talk about all the apsects of building a boat in what ever material. Each material has it's own positive strengths along with negative ones.

Unfair for me to put words Jeff's mouth but if I may suggest the point of view that Jeff maybe coming from. I would presume Jeff is looking at boat design from a present day, modern design/build point of view. Fast, lightweight, easy to handle and strong stength to weight ratio. FC would be a poor choice for any of that.
OK, so my side of the fence. I like the older style boat. Character. A crusier. I don't care about weight. Infact I like that "ship" feel. I have no interest in racing my boat. Not to say I don't like racing, but for Dawn and I, it is all about relaxing and exploring and seeing nature. The romance of it all. So the style of boat kinda blends into that. My boat does not have a clipper bow, but I would have loved one. Full Keel big volume. You don't get those designs in the modern design world today so much. Yes there are a couple out there, but mate, they are way out of my dream budget range, let alone an affordable range.
But there are many of us that still want that "character" boat and if someone wants to build one, then the choice of materials and the ability for an amature to build in them become, IMO, limited. It takes a lot of skill and money to build a traditional hull in timber today. Not impossible, but harder than FC. Steel is a good choice and is why it tends to be the most common. But there are also some major ongoing maintenance issues with steel. Plus as I have said earlier, I have seen some steel hulls I would never want to go to sea in. I could never trust the welding on at least two I have seen built. Yes it's hard to survey a FC hull for defects, but how the heck do you know if a weld is made properly. I have seen stuff that looked like bird crap(honest) and faired over beautifully. The finished article looked majic. The welds were still crap and the new owner will never know.
Trying to build a traditonal style hull in GRP for an amature is next to impossible, both from equipment required, expertise and cost.
So FC becomes an achievable and in many aspects, an affordable medium to build a boat with. Especially by an amature in a backyard. Remember, issues of buildings and equipment come into the overall budget. FC requires little of either and the fact that a building not being required to house the project, makes a big difference to anyones budget.
Weight to strength arguments from Jeffs point of view are valid arguments. But from my point of view when weight isn't an issue, only solid steel is stronger and even then, in some instances, FC can be stronger than. Plus FC is lighter than steel and you have none of the issues you get with steel. Plus you have to admit, hard chined flat plate steel boats look butt ugly (sorry) and round hulls in steel are next to impossible for an amature to economicaly produce.
Then there are a whole lot of interior aspects of FC that can make it a pleasure to live in. I have so many people make comments about how quite, how fresh the interior feels and smells and that it doesn't move around like a cork when they step onboard. OK, maybe that's a negative with weight, but it is fantastic for the many I get that are scared of the boat moving and heeling etc etc.
OK,I'm done.

[Whiptail]

Hey Mudnut, with regards to Wilf O'Kell - he used to be in Bundaberg (may still be!) and designed and built a lot of ferro boats in the 70's and 80's. I remember as a young tacker going with my father to help plaster a hull for him, being research for the schooner the old man would later build. Wilf even came down with his team for the plastering of ours, no doubt encouraged by the keg on the verandah afterwards. We had the hull done in one shot and all in daylight hours and what a party that night! Pity I was only about 10.
As for the strength of ferro - our schooner was left on a mooring in Nelson Bay for a couple of months, and on return to Mooloolaba we slipped her for maintenance, finding a patch of gouges below the waterline. After a few phone calls the marina finally admitted that the mooring line had busted in a 40 knot blow and the old girl had ended up on the rocks, only discovered the next morning after bumping on the chop against the rocks for half the night. They just fixed the line and tied her back up hoping we wouldn't notice. The end result was a few cosmetic gouges that didn't expose any metal, so a bit of filler and some paint was all she needed.

[Ngairini O'Kell]

Hi this is strange, but I am Wilfs daughter and when we were building the ferro cement yacht 'Pania' in Bundaberg, I was about 10 also. We probably met!Anyway drop me a line if interested in chatting or talking to Dad okellewdm@hotmail.com Cheers, Ngairini

Originally Posted by Whiptail

Hey Mudnut, with regards to Wilf O'Kell - he used to be in Bundaberg (may still be!) and designed and built a lot of ferro boats in the 70's and 80's. I remember as a young tacker going with my father to help plaster a hull for him, being research for the schooner the old man would later build. Wilf even came down with his team for the plastering of ours, no doubt encouraged by the keg on the verandah afterwards. We had the hull done in one shot and all in daylight hours and what a party that night! Pity I was only about 10.
As for the strength of ferro - our schooner was left on a mooring in Nelson Bay for a couple of months, and on return to Mooloolaba we slipped her for maintenance, finding a patch of gouges below the waterline. After a few phone calls the marina finally admitted that the mooring line had busted in a 40 knot blow and the old girl had ended up on the rocks, only discovered the next morning after bumping on the chop against the rocks for half the night. They just fixed the line and tied her back up hoping we wouldn't notice. The end result was a few cosmetic gouges that didn't expose any metal, so a bit of filler and some paint was all she needed.

[Feral Cement]

I'm looking at a pro-built (South Africa) Hartley 45 with several rust spots along the waterline. Is this the sign of a poorly built and/or deteriorated hull? The boat is CHEAP but not worth it if I have to spent years patching.

What to look for and what to avoid? Thanks!

[Boracay]

Before you pay for a survey have a close look at the problem.

I have a distant memory of Richard Hartley writing in his book that the reinforcing wire would only rust to just under the cement. Only a good ferro surveyor would know for sure.

What level of risk will you assume?

[Ngairini O'Kell]

Hey still curious as to who you are and if we met when young. My Dad is Wilf OKell and Mum Di. We were in Bundy email okellewdm@hotmail.com if you want to get in touch. Cheers Ngairini

Originally Posted by Whiptail

Hey Mudnut, with regards to Wilf O'Kell - he used to be in Bundaberg (may still be!) and designed and built a lot of ferro boats in the 70's and 80's. I remember as a young tacker going with my father to help plaster a hull for him, being research for the schooner the old man would later build. Wilf even came down with his team for the plastering of ours, no doubt encouraged by the keg on the verandah afterwards. We had the hull done in one shot and all in daylight hours and what a party that night! Pity I was only about 10.
As for the strength of ferro - our schooner was left on a mooring in Nelson Bay for a couple of months, and on return to Mooloolaba we slipped her for maintenance, finding a patch of gouges below the waterline. After a few phone calls the marina finally admitted that the mooring line had busted in a 40 knot blow and the old girl had ended up on the rocks, only discovered the next morning after bumping on the chop against the rocks for half the night. They just fixed the line and tied her back up hoping we wouldn't notice. The end result was a few cosmetic gouges that didn't expose any metal, so a bit of filler and some paint was all she needed.

[Feral Cement]

PDBMS and others --

I would like as many pictures as you care to send of Hartley Tahitian 45's in various stages of refit or as completed. I particular, pictures that show interior layout and cabintop/pilothouse construction. Where is the engine in relation to the hull and cabin? Is your salon raised to just clear the engine, or is it raised further to afford visibility? Any aft cockpit examples out there? Any changes you WISH you had made and didn't, or changes you WISH you hadn't made but did?

Thanks - knowledge is power.

John