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Old 25-12-2013, 20:20   #61
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Re: Fake Boats?

I would expect that, as you go up the "food chain" of more expensive boats, you would fine better materials, workmanship, fit and finish, features, and comfort. But, it might be interesting to ask whether there are some manufacturers who at some or other price point spend more resources on providing luxury, others who emphasize some measure or other of performance, and yet others who spend more on seaworthiness and survivability?
Any maybe some builders have better designers, more efficient production, better economies of scale, better work forces, or a willingness to settle for less profit.
So, it would seem possible that several manufacturers could build boats to the same price point, yet be quite different in which goals they try to meet and how well they meet those goals. And the amount of durability or seaworthiness might scale only very loosely with price, especially as boats age and their use and maintenance histories diverge. Or what if one boat was initially more "seaworthy" than others, but was built so as to be harder for most owners to maintain that seaworthiness?
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Old 26-12-2013, 00:04   #62
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Re: Fake Boats?

One of the biggest differences and the easiest to see is in deck hardware. The manufacturers most of us think of as off shore boats tend to have bigger winches, backing plates instead of washers, thicker mast sections, winches with few lines run to them, ect...

For example, the Hunter 40 uses ST46 primaries and a single 40ST on the cabin top. A Halberg-Rassy 412 uses ST50's as primaries and a 40ST cabin top, but adds a second cabin top winch, so instead of eight lines led to a single winch there are only four a side. This adds probably $4,000 to the purchase price (a complete wag I haven't priced any of the equipment) but adds a lot of ease of use, and makes the boat safer. You could go around the world without ever needing the larger winches, or the extra one, but you would certainly prefer to have them a lot of the time.

I just rebedded my cabin top winch (only have one) because the washers were crushing the deck after just 7 years. At the same time I installed backing plates instead of the fender washers. From personal experience I can tell you many of the cheaper manufacturers just use washers, while the offshore boats use backing plates instead. Figure a couple grand a boat for this upgrade. Again, you may never need the extra strength, but when you do.... Seeing a winch rip out of the deck is one of the scariest things I have ever witnessed.


The car analogy only gets you so far. The extra plush high quality leather in a Bentley doesn't mean squat in a high speed collision, but bigger winches with backing plates instead of washers could mean the difference in life and death in a storm.

But I also think many people are overly worried about ultimate quality. Taking a boat to the Carribean is easy, modern weather routing makes it almost impossible to unexpectedly hit bad weather and the distances involved are typically a day sail away. If we are talking about the North Atlantic, or rounding the Capes it is a completely different story.
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Old 26-12-2013, 01:14   #63
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No boat manufacturer builds their boats to fail. If it is well maintained and sailed conservatively with planing and fore thought you could take most production boats anywhere you would like to go. It comes down to what you can afford and what you are comfortable in. If everyone was to listen to the experts typing away telling you this and that is the only way to go, then by all means stay on land. And someone said they would not go off shore in a certain type of boat because it has too big a companion way....wake up.
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Old 26-12-2013, 01:26   #64
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Ive been in nasty stuff for days on end and some boats while they can handle it twist and bend and it is very hard on them. At some pint bulkheads and more can give way. Not every boat is designed to do this often. Some are. There is a difference even though a large Irwin cc is nice and roomy and looks rugged, And I would do the caribbean and bahamas in one, its not what I call a blue water boat. Too me offshore and Bluewater mean totally different things. We have taken a 15' whaler offshore on a calm day, it is not a bluewater fishing machine lol.
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Old 26-12-2013, 09:44   #65
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Re: Fake Boats?

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And someone said they would not go off shore in a certain type of boat because it has too big a companion way....wake up.
So in your mind "if the cockpit floods the boat sinks" is a desirable feature when crossing an ocean?

If you were planning to circumnavigate on such a boat you really would not raise the bridge deck?

You may not care, but in the context of this thread, that is exactly the type of difference between a coastal boat and an offshore boat. Raising the bridge deck is exactly the type of modification one should undertake if upgrading a stock coastal cruiser for offshore work.
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Old 26-12-2013, 09:59   #66
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pirate Re: Fake Boats?

Quote:
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So in your mind "if the cockpit floods the boat sinks" is a desirable feature when crossing an ocean?

If you were planning to circumnavigate on such a boat you really would not raise the bridge deck?

You may not care, but in the context of this thread, that is exactly the type of difference between a coastal boat and an offshore boat. Raising the bridge deck is exactly the type of modification one should undertake if upgrading a stock coastal cruiser for offshore work.
Yet the Contessa 26 (a wet boat to say the least) is often recommended as a great offshore boat..


Or how about the Folkboat.. also 'wet' but sail all over the world..


Not having a go mate.. but over this side little things like a bit of water 'over the top' is regarded as par for the course..
In some case's... like my December crossing of the Biscay in a 22ft Hurley it was very welcome.. the water temp was around 15c... the wind chill was around freezing so the odd wave dumping on me now and then was quite a relief..
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Old 26-12-2013, 10:09   #67
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Re: Fake Boats?

Hmmmm...There are a lot of opinions in any discussion when it comes to boats, some valid, some based on experience, some based on personal bias, all have something to contribute.
Some of the production boat bias may come from the number of really cheesy production boats built in the 70's and 80's, there were some good ones and also some really flimsy ones. Most of the weaker companies went belly up towards the end of the 80's and into the beginning of the 90's due to economics and changes in the demographics of the market at that time, some deserved to but some good boat designer/builders also went under too.
Whether good or bad most of the boats in the fiberglass age have a lifespan well beyond the original design intent, so if you sailed on a flexi-flier that had outlived it's original effectiveness (some should have never left the dock) it would leave a definite opinion in your mind, usually a bad one.
Since that time most boat builders and designers have improved or died off, this has improved the selection overall, but, most production builders also focus the design and execution of their models at a defined market. No production builder will claim that every design they build is bluewater capable, some are and some aren't, keep that in mind when buying one.
I'm not going to be brand specific here but several of the production builders have stepped up the the quality and design of their larger models and have produced boats that can do the job, this is also in response to changing demographics, most of the people who started their sailing experience in those companies smaller boats are now looking to move up and out into the wider world. Any smart company that wants to continue to prosper has picked up on this and has expanded their line to accommodate that segment of the market, also, those bigger sturdier boats have a bigger profit margin. Want to keep your customer brand loyal? Produce boats from beginner boats to something more substantial that allows your customers to progress through the curve while still buying within the brand, several manufacturers have done this. The difference is, they can apply building practices and purchasing scales that still keep them within reach of mere mortals.
Would I say every boat in a production builders line is bluewater capable? No, but neither would they, they have models for that.
At the same time I'm not about to paint their models with a broad brush of disapproval, most are building better more capable boats now than ever. When choosing be model specific and be completely honest about how you intend to use it, you just may find a lot more boats in the mix.
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Old 26-12-2013, 10:10   #68
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Re: Fake Boats?

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Yet the Contessa 26 (a wet boat to say the least) is often recommended as a great offshore boat..


Or how about the Folkboat.. also 'wet' but sail all over the world..


Not having a go mate.. but over this side little things like a bit of water 'over the top' is regarded as par for the course..
In some case's... like my December crossing of the Biscay in a 22ft Hurley it was very welcome.. the water temp was around 15c... the wind chill was around freezing so the odd wave dumping on me now and then was quite a relief..
I cannot speak for the owners of these boats, but if I was planning to cross an ocean, I would really want a bridge deck, or the equivalent, at least as high as the cockpit seats. I would also want the tanks to actually be attached to something as opposed to just sitting in the boat. I would also want cleats fastened with backing plates and large bolts, instead of #10 screws and washers. I would also want an anchor roller that could withstand being used as an anchor roller. I would want opening ports to get ventilation. I would want lockers, to store stuff in. Enough stuff to live on the boat for months at a time.

Again, you may not want these things, but the question here is what are you getting when you pay "extra" for a boat that is not built specifically to be sold as cheap as reasonable. These are the kind of things you are getting.
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Old 26-12-2013, 10:13   #69
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Re: Fake Boats?

"Anyone that would go sailing for pleasure, would go to hell for a pastime."
I don't remember who said it, I didn't make it up.
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Old 26-12-2013, 10:31   #70
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pirate Re: Fake Boats?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RainDog View Post
I cannot speak for the owners of these boats, but if I was planning to cross an ocean, I would really want a bridge deck, or the equivalent, at least as high as the cockpit seats. I would also want the tanks to actually be attached to something as opposed to just sitting in the boat. I would also want cleats fastened with backing plates and large bolts, instead of #10 screws and washers. I would also want an anchor roller that could withstand being used as an anchor roller. I would want opening ports to get ventilation. I would want lockers, to store stuff in. Enough stuff to live on the boat for months at a time.

Again, you may not want these things, but the question here is what are you getting when you pay "extra" for a boat that is not built specifically to be sold as cheap as reasonable. These are the kind of things you are getting.

That is down to the place the boat was built and the nature of waters it was built/sold for I feel...
I bought a Bene 321 that was built in France... the build quality was superior to that of the Bene 331 that was built in Florida... with as you say undersized screws in the interior furniture/fittings and washers with no ply backing pads for deck gear.
They both crossed the Pond W to E perfectly well.. but having the aft bunk give way under me on the 331 for example was a bit annoying to say the least.. and I'm a tad under 80kg..
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Old 26-12-2013, 10:35   #71
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Quote:
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So in your mind "if the cockpit floods the boat sinks" is a desirable feature when crossing an ocean?

If you were planning to circumnavigate on such a boat you really would not raise the bridge deck?

You may not care, but in the context of this thread, that is exactly the type of difference between a coastal boat and an offshore boat. Raising the bridge deck is exactly the type of modification one should undertake if upgrading a stock coastal cruiser for offshore work.
I hate to think what your mods will do to a nice boat. If you are out there and feel the seas are getting a bit lumpy with the odd splash into your cockpit then do what most prudent folks do and put one or all the boards in. Bridge deck and companion way are two different things, the biggest comoanion way I have seen is on the islander 36 and wait for it......yes they have drop in boards.
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Old 26-12-2013, 10:39   #72
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Re: Fake Boats?

Dr. Samuel Johnson?
Who also seems to have said, “When a man comes to like a sea life, he is not fit to live on land.”

Ted Jones: “The fireside is nice and there are those for whom it will be the ultimate Utopia, but the fireside is nicer still when you can remember the joys of an offshore passage and dream of the time when you can go out and do it again.”

Tristan Jones: “There’s one thing about bashing to windward. You never forget, for one minute, that you are at sea in a sailing boat.”
and “If you cannot arrive in daylight, then stand off well clear, all night, and wait until dawn. After all, that’s one of the things God made boats for – to wait in.”
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Old 26-12-2013, 10:51   #73
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Re: Fake Boats?

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That is down to the place the boat was built and the nature of waters it was built/sold for I feel... ]
That is pretty much all I was attempting to say: A boat built for marina living and day sailing, which is how 99% of all boats are used, will most likely have things an owner might want to improve if they will be using the boat in a way it was not intended. That is exactly what I think the OP was asking. You can buy a boat made for life at anchor and crossing oceans, but you can also take a stock boat and improve it to support this kind of use. The links I posted earlier give examples of how to do this, or in the case of the second one, a very concrete example of what one person chose to do.

You can agree or disagree with their choices, but to claim there is no difference between a boat build for daysailing to sell for $150k, and a boat build for cruising to sell for $250k is naive. To claim the difference is all bling is also incorrect.

Installing oversize cleats, windlasses, backing plates, winches, etc. has a real cost. They are expensive and labor is expensive.

Installing lockers and other furniture and finishing them in wood is expensive. Opening ports, hatches, dorades, etc. are expensive. Heavy bow rollers are expensive.

Can you sail across and ocean on a boat without these things? Of course. If you are planning to cruise a boat for years that does not have these things, should you add them? It is up to you, but I say absolutely.

Can you safely cross and ocean on a boat with a leaking hull-to-deck joint? Leaking stanchions? Leaking hatches? Of course. But if this is a boat you will cruise on for years, do your really want to?
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Old 26-12-2013, 10:52   #74
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Tristan Jones “If you cannot arrive in daylight, then stand off well clear, all night, and wait until dawn. After all, that’s one of the things God made boats for – to wait in.”[/QUOTE]

And God created the land so tbe sailors had somewhere to occasionally visit.
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Old 26-12-2013, 11:17   #75
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pirate Re: Fake Boats?

Which is why I would only buy an old UK/French built boat for a live aboard these days.. what you call upgrades are fairly standard which is why you get old 21 ft junk rigs sailing into the Artic Circle and under 32ftrs crossing to the Carib's every year..
A US built boat I would only buy for a fast resale to a 500m/yr man as the comfort/accommodation factor is where all the major expense seems to go leaving little for the stuff that keeps one alive.
I'd rather a 26ftr with sitting headroom and good gear than 6ft headroom with 'Bayliner' quality cast fittings.. the amount of those we had to save due to cleat failure in the late 80's early 90's when I worked Poole Harbour
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