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Old 25-12-2013, 07:25   #31
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Re: Fake Boats?

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Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post

You're right, I guess all boats are the same... the skipper is the only difference. I also assume that you believe all Hunters and production
The only thing I really believe in any of these "discussions" is that the word ALL never applies except by boat bashers.
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Old 25-12-2013, 07:46   #32
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Re: Fake Boats?

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Personally I think the reason almost any boat today is OK for bluewater sailing is because so much has changed.
I think that really nails it .

Time was that a boat had to carry every last spare known to man - and then some....plus crew have the knowledge to fix everything..........and those dictated both the boat style (large load carrying capacity meant size / displacement) and the crew skills.

Over the last couple of decades the world has got smaller, plusses and minuses to that - but it means that unless you are voyaging well off piste that both UPS (for spares) and an internet connection (for advice) are never that far away.

Time was that driving to China needed a Camel Train - nowadays it can be done (from Europe!) in a 500 banger (one of my neighbours did that).....of course you wouldn't be wise to cross the Gobi Desert in it - but stick to the beaten track (asphalt!) and any disasters won't be fatal. Same with boats.......nowadays a GPS, a WIFI connection and a credit Card can get you RTW on a boat - if the sea gods don't take a dislike to ya!.......whether that approach alone is wise or safe enough being a separate matter........


Having said all that, and acknowledging that "Bluewater" is simply a marketing term - I would favour a boat that can carry a fair bit of stores (food and spares), but that as much about convenience and lower cost than necessity. and also a boat that does not flex greatly in a blow. Whether a Hunter etc fits those requirements I don't know - nor presently care ........but in the future if circumstances dictate, nothing modern would be automatically excluded. Look and decide for self.

In regard to cats, those have got "safer" over the decades mostly from an increase in size. Mono or Multi above 40 foot and you need to be a numpty to get into serious trouble.....plus the bigger the boat, on average, the more comfortable at sea and in port (95% plus of the time).
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Old 25-12-2013, 07:48   #33
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Re: Fake Boats?

I might buy a Hunter as my first sailboat, but I'm absolutely sure it won't be the last boat I'll buy.
Do you really need a Porsche or Ferrari to learn how to drive? Or are you better served with a Miata?
I doubt most people who have an Oyster 46 seriously considered a Hunter, anymore that a new Ferrari purchaser was having a hard time choosing between the new Ferrari or the new Miata, but the little Miata is one fine little automobile for those who cannot afford a Ferrari.
To continue the automobile analogy, which is better a 40 yr old Ferrari or a two year old Miata? For the average car owner who has to drive back and forth to work? Because it seems unless money is no object, the choices for which boat is similar, unless of course you can stroke a million dollar check. Many can't. I can't anyway and if I could It would guarantee a divorce if I did
From my perspective if your only casual sailing and or learning how to sail etc. it seems a production boat makes a lot of sense.
I think before I buy a proper bluewater boat if ever, I'll make sure I have enough time and miles under my belt so I'm not having to ask which is better, I'll know exactly what I want. I can't afford to make many of those purchases, so in my case at least I think a production boat to learn on makes sense, plus I think I'll have less problem talking the wife into a newer, less expensive, "prettier", more modern interior with things like Corian countertops and double stainless steel sinks, nice windows to look out of and airconditioning because to her those things are important.
She is not stupid though, and with experience she will learn that some things are just "eyewash" and really aren't important, but I have to get her in a boat that she likes in order for her to get that experience.
If I know her like I think I do, after we retire she will be the one pushing for a "proper" blue water boat and I will be the one worrying about the cost of such a boat, who knows?
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Old 25-12-2013, 08:15   #34
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pirate Re: Fake Boats?

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Originally Posted by sww914 View Post
I see more Hunters "out there" than anything else.
I think a64pilot has the answer for why that is:

" ...I think a production boat to learn on makes sense, plus I think I'll have less problem talking the wife into a newer, less expensive, "prettier", more modern interior with things like Corian countertops and double stainless steel sinks, nice windows to look out of and airconditioning because to her those things are important."
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Old 25-12-2013, 08:21   #35
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Re: Fake Boats?

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Captain58sailin: "The rest is just ego fodder"

You're right, I guess all boats are the same... the skipper is the only difference. I also assume that you believe all Hunters and production boats can handle a weather situation just as well as the Oyster 46 in the video below. Picture yourself doing this on your boat... no land in sight. Is it a time when you want to be concerned about your keel or rudder falling off?
Wonder if that boat is completely dry below? Not trying to critique it, but that's got to be hard on a roller furling genoa. Do oysters typically come with an inner stay? I've never been on an oyster.

I definitely can't afford to subject my already distorted genoa to Force 10 winds. I set my staysail when things pipe up, but I guess sometimes you need some more canvas forward to drive her, depending on boat and conditions. Or get caught with your pants down and just roll it up some.

How much crew to sail your boat in various conditions? I presume your passagemaking is timed to avoid gales, and wonder if a couple can easily handle that 50+ footer both offshore and at the dock?
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Old 25-12-2013, 09:45   #36
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Re: Fake Boats?

I would much rather be 100 nm offshore in a blow than near the land, unless I can get behind a chunk of it, to stay out of the way. "The ocean is not the enemy, it is the bloody hard stuff around it." I don't remember who said that, I saw it on the wall of the Durbeck factory, and had to agree.
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Old 25-12-2013, 10:44   #37
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Re: Fake Boats?

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Wonder if that boat is completely dry below? Not trying to critique it, but that's got to be hard on a roller furling genoa. Do oysters typically come with an inner stay? I've never been on an oyster.

I definitely can't afford to subject my already distorted genoa to Force 10 winds. I set my staysail when things pipe up, but I guess sometimes you need some more canvas forward to drive her, depending on boat and conditions. Or get caught with your pants down and just roll it up some.

How much crew to sail your boat in various conditions? I presume your passagemaking is timed to avoid gales, and wonder if a couple can easily handle that 50+ footer both offshore and at the dock?
I can't answer for the boat in the video, but on our Oyster 53 it only requires one or two people to handle everything. Yes Oysters do come with an inner forestay, ours actually has two of them due to the cutter rig, and we were completely dry below in a force 8.

Docking is easier than on our previous Hunter 450, I do it alone regularly without difficulty. With my wife, we routinely decline assistance from those on the docks when docking.
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Old 25-12-2013, 11:25   #38
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Goto a large boat show and see them all together. I saw the new boats at st Petersburg show and was amazed at the new construction. Heading to Miami next. I was in a heavy wether simana seminar with John k and he said this is always the most packed classes but the least sailed in because if you sail into a storm it's usually because you choose to put your self there. Sail in what you want and do it smartly and you can sail any where.
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Old 25-12-2013, 12:25   #39
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Re: Fake Boats?

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Picture yourself doing this on your boat... no land in sight. Is it a time when you want to be concerned about your keel or rudder falling off?

How many Production boat have had their Keels and Rudder falling off at sea compared to those "real blue water boats"....anyone have any feeling for these numbers?

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Docking is easier than on our previous Hunter 450, I do it alone regularly without difficulty. With my wife, we routinely decline assistance from those on the docks when docking.
ya but we do that with our Hudson Froce 50 also...and she is a handling PIG at low speeds boy...let me tell you
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Old 25-12-2013, 12:46   #40
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Re: Fake Boats?

It ain't the size of your ship, it's the motion in the ocean!






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Old 25-12-2013, 12:49   #41
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Re: Fake Boats?

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It ain't the size of your ship, it's the motion in the ocean!


Ha ha ha....
Going from a Pearson 365 Ketch to a Hudson Force 50....we like the motion in rough seas of the Pearson over the Hudson hands down.....but I have to say where we spend 95% of our time floating at anchor...man do we love the space and "living comfort" of the bigger boat.
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Old 25-12-2013, 14:00   #42
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I've posted this twice before, but the question keeps popping up, so here goes again;

The question of what makes a "bluewater cruiser" is one that comes up continuously, and I believe that the reason for this is that it has never been definitively defined. I would like to answer that question once and for all and put an end to the heretofore endless debate. In the book, "The History of the World According to Me" (not yet in print), the origin of the term is quite clear. Way back in the days that Wrigley chewing gum was being manufactured on Catalina Island, quality control inspectors noticed an "off" flavor to the chewing gum when the wind was from the East. After much troubleshooting, consulting of tea leaves, and the sacrifice of three chickens and a goat, it was determined that the "off" flavor was caused by an odor that was coming from raw sewage that the flotilla anchored off Avalon was pumping into the water. Frank "The Tank" Wrigley (don't ask) immediately banned the discharge of sewage overboard. He is reliably quoted to have said, "I am swimming in affluence, and I'll be damned if I have to swim in effluence!" The ban was ineffective until dye tablets were introduced into the heads of all vessels moored off of Avalon. The dye tablets were (you guessed it) BLUE! Any vessel with a head that could be pumped overboard was thenceforth known as "a bluewater vessel", hence, "bluewater sailboat". So if your boat only came with a porta-potty, sorry, it's simply not bluewater capable without extensive modifications.

I hope this entirely true story will put to rest any more questions regarding the qualifications for a bluewater sailboat.
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Old 25-12-2013, 14:50   #43
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Re: Fake Boats?

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How many Production boat have had their Keels and Rudder falling off at sea compared to those "real blue water boats"....anyone have any feeling for these numbers?
We've owned two production boats, an O'Day 20 and the Hunter 450. The Hunter had the keel come loose when the keel bolts corroded through. So that would be 50% of the production boats we've owned have had a keel failure. Our friends own a Hunter 450, their keel has been fine, so... 50% of the Hunter 450s we know personally have had a keel failure.

We don't expect to have a problem with our Oyster keel. No reports of any Oysters loosing their keels.
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Old 25-12-2013, 14:58   #44
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Good one John. I have pooped in Avalon Harbor but have never been part of the problem because poop is sterile.

Wait ... What?


Never mind.
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Old 25-12-2013, 15:11   #45
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Re: Fake Boats?

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We've owned two production boats, an O'Day 20 and the Hunter 450. The Hunter had the keel come loose when the keel bolts corroded through.

Tell the rest of the story where the earlier owner kept the boat at a slip that wasn't deep enough for the boat so the twice a day the boat sit on it's keel so that the tide basically torqued it back and forth. And yet is somehow Hunters fault that the keel joint cam loose.
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