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Old 06-12-2009, 10:38   #16
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Sundeers are no longer made... so I left them out.
Royal Huisman builds custom 100+ foot yachts... not the same. Not saying the Dutch don't build great boats... they in fact do. Just saying that there are some American builders that build as good or better.
In the end most of us by what we know, or see, or can afford. Many would not want my boat, but to me its the best compromise in the price range I wanted to spend. The rich fat cats will get what they get, and spend very little time onboard.
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Old 06-12-2009, 15:35   #17
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I don't think they build Hinkleys anymore or do they? Moody is an EU built boat.

You definitely never saw the finish of a good EU boat and your statement that EU boats aren't made for open oceans tells me you're just trolling here ;-) I just don't understand why.

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Old 06-12-2009, 18:46   #18
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NIck, come on.... you sail a AMERICAN boat. That should tell you something.
Hinkleys are absolutely being built as you breath..
Having a galley run the lenght of the boat, as many euro boats do... tells me they are not true blue water boats.
I have seen the finish on eu boats. Thats why I have a opinion.
Understand, or not. I stand by my statement that a top american boat is better then a top eu boat when it comes to production boats. One offs are something else.
Either way both are good. Just the perspective changes.

Bob
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Old 06-12-2009, 18:57   #19
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Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post

Looking at boat builders, there's not many US yards that build boats equal to Hallberg Rassy, Contest, Bruce Farr, X-yachts, Oyster, Koopmans, Atlantic (the Dutch one), Swan, van Dam, Bowman, Wally, Trintella, van de Stad, Dufour, Royal Huisman etc. etc. It is obvious that the EU builds far more great yachts than the US.
Listen to this man. He is wise.

I would add overseas artefacts like the funny things from Kanter (Boungavillea or whatever the tongue breaker is named). One is in LP just now - 62' I think and she is !!! - bet she is par with A Deerfoot ....

Jedi?

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Old 06-12-2009, 19:04   #20
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NIck, come on.... you sail a AMERICAN boat. That should tell you something.
Hinkleys are absolutely being built as you breath..
Having a galley run the lenght of the boat, as many euro boats do... tells me they are not true blue water boats.
I have seen the finish on eu boats. Thats why I have a opinion.
Understand, or not. I stand by my statement that a top american boat is better then a top eu boat when it comes to production boats. One offs are something else.
Either way both are good. Just the perspective changes.

Bob
Question?? can you pls compare a good USA production boat with a production Nautor Swan ?
Cheers.
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Old 06-12-2009, 21:15   #21
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Well, the Dutch boats are mostly semi-custom. There are American boats from builders like French & Webb that are every bit as good, unless you like steel.

There is no better boat made than one of the Morris offerings designed by Chuck Paine. None. Not a Swedish boat, not an American boat.

And why compare a Swan to a production boat? It's apples vs oranges, because Swans aren't a production boat. Compare a Swan to a Morris, Hinckley, Shannon or Little Harbor. That's a fair comparison.
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Old 07-12-2009, 07:25   #22
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So, the conclusion is that Americans don't know much about EU built boats, production or one-off ;-)

Just to throw it in:

Kanter: yes;

Nautor Swan: production boat for sure, what makes one think it isn't?; They build much much bigger productions runs than my Sundeer (only 10 build).

Deerfoot: beautiful but very expensive and not as fast as Sundeer.

Chuck Paine: okay, not super, but I don't know anything about a Morris.

Dutch boats: Contest is a real production boat, compare to that then.

French boats: let's throw Ovni into the mix, excellent boat with an excellent record.

Galleys all along one side of the boat in EU boats: same as stating all Americans are LOUD and love war... it's just not true but sure the big series targeted at chartering are like that.

Me having an American boat: sure, but the finish is not anywhere near that of top EU boats... but we are not the type to show off with our boat, we live aboard and sail it (and we can't afford super finishing on a boat this size). I think an Oyster has 30 coats of varnish on the salon table, we have maybe 2 or 3 coats clear urethane spray. We have vinyl on the bulkheads and ceilings, cracks in the gelcoat etc.
When Dashew wanted a good finish on the interior for a US built hull, he put in a quick mock up interior and sailed the boat elsewhere for that work.
The finish on an Island Packet isn't so great so give an example of great finish on a US built boat??!!

Ocean sailing: a Koopmans is a real example of a boat for that, as are many van de Stad designs. The Dutch Atlantic's are build in aluminium and in the same category.

Check out these links:

For real art and high tech: Wally. That's something else than a Hinkley!
Wally

Koopmans Breehorn 44:
exterieur6

Van de Stadt:
VAN DE STADT DESIGN - Yacht Designers, Naval Architects

Atlantic:
Atlantic

The whole list I posted before is worth looking up on Google.

cheers,
Nick.
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Old 07-12-2009, 07:48   #23
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Well, the Dutch boats are mostly semi-custom. There are American boats from builders like French & Webb that are every bit as good, unless you like steel.

There is no better boat made than one of the Morris offerings designed by Chuck Paine. None. Not a Swedish boat, not an American boat.

And why compare a Swan to a production boat? It's apples vs oranges, because Swans aren't a production boat. Compare a Swan to a Morris, Hinckley, Shannon or Little Harbor. That's a fair comparison.
Well mate ,, Swan is a production builder..
The morris at the picture is the Mr 42 at 682.000 U$ , A BIT EXPENSIVE but the quality is super.
The Swan at the pic is a 46 at 275.000 euros , a lot cheaper compare with the morris and a reall nice blue water boat with the same quality.
For 682.000 $ between a morris and a big swan , i choose a swan.
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Old 07-12-2009, 07:52   #24
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The galley in the picture come from the morris.
Cheers.
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Old 07-12-2009, 08:10   #25
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Well mate ,, Swan is a production builder..
The morris at the picture is the Mr 42 at 682.000 U$ , A BIT EXPENSIVE but the quality is super.
The Swan at the pic is a 46 at 275.000 euros , a lot cheaper compare with the morris and a reall nice blue water boat with the same quality.
For 682.000 $ between a morris and a big swan , i choose a swan.
You are comparing an old used boat to a new boat. That Swan is probably 25 years old - it's an old IOR design. A new Club Swan 42 will run you almost as much as the Morris, and is considered to be a lower quality Swan (built in Swan's new Estonia factory).
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Old 07-12-2009, 08:57   #26
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The morris in the picture is a 2007 version and is used !! the owner change plans to move to another morris, i dont compare new versus old,
yes the swan is a lot older !!! and i agree with you that the new swans are more racers that cruisers, , , curmudgeon say there is not competence for a morris in the EU market, yes, there is a lot of competents boats in the EU market , Swan have a strong and solid reputation, Hallberg rassy to, Swan is a Legend here in Europe ,
Morris is proud to be a american builder, But if you look at the pictures and the specifications of this 2 boats , 682.000 $ for a 42 morris ?? you see the galley in the pic?? lot of varnish and lot of exquisite wood , yes a beautifull boat , old Swans are made for rough weather , for sailing in any condition, just pure sailing machines , my conclusion is that EU boats are made for a diferent kind of sailing, remember that Swans are made in the past in Norway and Finland, i dont know right now, and in the North Sea a family with childrens leave the harbour in 30 plus knts off wind and be happy,
Take a look at the USA market in the mid range price-- and compare to the EU market. Cheers.
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Old 07-12-2009, 09:20   #27
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Mallo , Najad and hallberg rassy are super boats, bavarias are low quality construction boats, you never see a rassy loose their keel, and bavaria start made good boats time ago, old bavarias better that the new ones, beneteaus and jeaneaus same history, is like a friend of mine , she own a Henri Waquiez Ampitrithe 47 , the old one , really a world cruiser, Skeg for the ruder, internal ballast, hull to deck joint like the Rassy , and Waquiez made a new model with a fin keel bolted a spade ruder and the hull to deck joint bolted and glued, for me the question is what kind of boats the people looking for, and i have the conclusion that the 60 to 70 % want just cheap boats to start cruising and dont mind to much about the quality of the construction or a future circunnavigation, and the builders swicht to this current anyway, sales sales sales!!!!
Cheers...
I saw the Waquiez web site, and it looks good !
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Old 07-12-2009, 09:33   #28
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BTW We have a Futuna 57 here - for anybody into alu and high-tec look her up. Interesting - I believe Lombard design. Looks fast, looks efficient, and strong.

I was a bit surprised to see her decks are actually GRP ... something I thought about along the lines of why so few builders mix alu with plastic. I like this idea and looking forward to see how it works out.

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Old 07-12-2009, 09:37   #29
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Futuna boats here:

Normandy Yachts - aluminum sailboats for blue water ocean cruising and round the world voyage

Ciao,
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Old 07-12-2009, 09:52   #30
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So, the conclusion is that Americans don't know much about EU built boats, production or one-off ;-)


Nautor Swan: production boat for sure, what makes one think it isn't?; They build much much bigger productions runs than my Sundeer (only 10 build).


Chuck Paine: okay, not super, but I don't know anything about a Morris.
I sail in the Newport, RI area and there are lots of Swans, both the S&S and the Frers designs. They look semi-custom to me, and they aren't cheap.

There are many fine European boats but nothing is better than a Morris--there is a reason why many people are willing to pay the price. I've sailed on the 34 and the 38 and they just sail beautifully.

Ocean Series | Morris Yachts
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