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Old 06-04-2016, 18:43   #31
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Re: Even mono sailors advise is appreciated

It may not be a popular thing to say, but there may be one action that can resolve the bulk of your design problems.

Find a different, more relaxing pace, and slow down?
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Old 07-04-2016, 02:25   #32
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Re: Even mono sailors advise is appreciated

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Bunk. Not true.
So, insurance is NOT worth looking into
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Old 07-04-2016, 02:48   #33
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Re: Even mono sailors advise is appreciated

Insurance is a good thing to have and these companies are after profit so I am sure we can insure such boat; they just want our money and not pay or pay late or with difficulty when problems are there.........speaking from having owned mono hulls all my life

Banks and 'insuring' companies ; let's keep the conversation decent....
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Old 07-04-2016, 05:00   #34
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Re: Even mono sailors advise is appreciated

The best advice & choice which you can make (or get), is to find & hire a Good, Project Manager for this venture.

I've been down this road with a few clients, & inevitably, how things turn out, including your level of satisfaction with the boat (performance, plus, comfort & usability), AND with her systems.
Boil down to the guy who's doing the interfacing with the builders & installers, & also with you.

If he's on the same wavelength that you're on, & you trust him (after checking his ref's). Then he'll handle all of the detail work, & things which unexpectedly pop up (as the Always do). And you guys can focus on the big picture, more or less (while trying not to drive him too crazy, by changing a lot of the little details at the last minute).

This approach applies to whether you're buying old, or new (& refitting/outfitting). Or even building custom.
And some of why I'm saying as much, is because a guy with a finger on the industry, will be familiar with a multitude of different types & makes of systems. In addition to knowing what it's possible to do with/to a boat, & what makes sense to do to/with one.
Including both cosmetic, & structural mods. Plus where best to source; boats (or hulls/half finished projectes ripe for buying, Cheap), materials, systems, sails, & hardware. Ditto on engineering (expertise), & the guys to buld the mod's, etc.

Plus, of course, he's familiar with testing out everything, & heading off most of the teething problems before they even hit the drawing board. Plus doing sea trials; with, & or, for you, etc.
And, too, at the end of the day (as well as along the way) he'll be assembling all of your vessel's equiment manuals into binders; & creating checklists for X, Y, & Z. Along with 1,001 other little details, which make a vessel a simple joy to operate.
One which you can give the keys to a friend, & know that the lucky keyholder won't have any trouble figuring out & operating her. Thanks to your joint work on the project.
- HTH
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Old 07-04-2016, 06:19   #35
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Re: Even mono sailors advise is appreciated

Results ARC 2015; please compare times with mono hulls;

https://www.worldcruising.com/conten...0Multihull.pdf

The Outremer 51 was way behind the Neel 45' ......as was the other Outremer 51
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Old 07-04-2016, 07:36   #36
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Re: Even mono sailors advise is appreciated

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I know who he is, and I am sure that's what he said and did. I am just trying to internalize a boat capable of beating at 12kn and a fresh breeze, averaging 8.33kn over the course of a day.
Not suggesting this would be the right boat for you, but I met a guy with an F-39 and picked his brain for quite some time. He was cruising with his wife , but also has experience racing the boat.

The boat was a lot larger inside than I expected. I had been on several other Fboats, 24, 27, 28,31, and a 36. The F39 was a lot larger.

I mostly single hand a Seawind 1000 with one meter stern extensions and am quite happy with the speed. I consider it a ten knot boat if I get a good weather window. While extra hands are a help once I get the sails up and trimmed I can easily maintain the speed.

The F-39 guy said he was easily able to maintain 20 knots and hit 23. The thing was he needed a crew of five to do that. He also said at least four of the crew needed to be experienced.

Bottom line is sailing a big cruising boat above 15 knots is not for the faint hearted and probably requires a real crew and not just another couple on for the weekend. Even sailing at 10+ knots.
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Old 07-04-2016, 09:39   #37
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Re: Even mono sailors advise is appreciated

You can have a look at a Farrier F39 as a project or have it built by the factory they are working with.
Or you may find one quality built in Europe, in a certain stage and continue. I think I know of one example. They are rare ....
F39 is quite large but still has folding beams so you can fit within decent marina berth.
Have a look at f-boat.com site
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Old 07-04-2016, 15:29   #38
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Re: Even mono sailors advise is appreciated

One off engineering can be very disappointing and expensive. Find a builder that has a deign that has been built a couple of times.


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Old 08-04-2016, 03:15   #39
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Re: Even mono sailors advise is appreciated

As we start to understand there is no such design as Neel 45 in shorter version.......we imagine that building one for ourselves might result in convincing other sailors that such 40' tri is the way to go.......a small business
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Old 08-04-2016, 05:03   #40
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Re: Even mono sailors advise is appreciated

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We are thinking around 40' ; that is big enough for 2 couples and less expensive as the Neel 45'
Forget about it. It will not be cheaper than the Neel 45, not by a long shoot at least for a similar interior.

There are several small French firms that are specialized (or where if they did not bankrupt) on that but I don't believe you can have built a 40ft trimaran or over at a "reasonable cost", something comparable to what costs a Neil 45, unless it is a pretty much naked boat.

Some years ago I looked at that the same way as you and give up. The best option seemed to be a Farrier 39 design, but after checking costs with reputable shipyards with experience building them I gave up.


You can ask a quote to built one anyway to get an idea of the cost. It is kind of minimum size for 2 couples and even so not much space and very few space for storage. It is more a boat for a couple and occasional guests.


The other option it will be to "recover" and old racing trimaran and turn it to a cruising boat but I doubt you would have space for 2 couples to live comfortably. Or even better pick some old one that has already been modified...but expect lots of work ahead.
https://m-int.nl/trimaran/for-sale-trimaran-tres.html

There is talks about Dragonfly to be thinking in making a bigger trimaran but I bet it would cost way over 700 000 euros.

For something fast that would not cost you a fortune I would look, besides the Neel 45 to the TS 42 and in what regards monohulls for the new JPK 45 or the Pogo 50. The JPK 45 is probably the one most suited for a world circumnavigation and you can discuss with JP all your particular requirements, kind of a less expensive alternative.


You can find lots of fast cats suited for that, for instance the Outremer 51 but their prices are also over 700 000 euros.

Good look in your search for the right boat.
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Old 08-04-2016, 06:33   #41
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Re: Even mono sailors advise is appreciated

I find 40' cats about the lower limit for cruising, not to say there are no 36' that are still OK (to me). Now given in a tri you live (mostly?) in one hull, I would aim at say maybe 50' as a minimum. Notice that Neel thing is 45 and does not seem huge inside.

I think that when extensive cruising is the target, boats do benefit from being bigger. When extensive sailing is the target than this is also true but going too big creates its own set of challenges too.

I also noticed that apparently more tris than cats flop upside down in heavy seas. So here again I could see some possible gains going above 40'.

Needles to say, if your planned use does not justify a bigger boat, do not get one.

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Old 08-04-2016, 06:52   #42
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Re: Even mono sailors advise is appreciated

Barnakiel ; how do you get the idea of tri's capsizing more than cats?

The cats built are mostly for cruising and 'can not' capsize or pitch due to the restricted sailing capacities.......nothing to do with owner but the limited mast hight/ hull shape for stowing lots of luggage / shape for cruising not speeding

So most cats do not sail for former racers alike myself ; they float and do the job of transporting people in comfort from a to b

Apart from Outremer and one or two other respected yards.

The Neel 45 sleeps people enough and still has volume to stow luggage; a proper sailing boat that goes relatively to the Lagoons of this world 'fast'.

We owned a 50' ketch so no need but that space equivalent; 40' tri can give this.

Speed in comfort and safety is our dream; so you surprise me with your statement that tri;s capsize.........possibly these racing machines but not the Neel 45' or such versions
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Old 08-04-2016, 08:12   #43
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Re: Even mono sailors advise is appreciated

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....
I also noticed that apparently more tris than cats flop upside down in heavy seas. So here again I could see some possible gains going above 40'.

Needles to say, if your planned use does not justify a bigger boat, do not get one.

b.
I don't agree with you on that one not regarding seeing more trimarans upside down but regarding their being less resistant to capsize for an identical weight and length.

Probably you see more capsized because most of the cruising trimarans are under 35 feet while cruising cats use to considerably bigger. There is also a lot more racing offshore trimarans then racing cats and therefore it is easier that you see more capsizing, but one of the reason you see more racing trimarans is because they are easier to control at the limit and therefore safer.

Also if you check it out you will see that trimarans have normally more beam to a given lenght than a cat and have the CG lower, since cats have a "house" on the middle of the boat while on a trimaran you live inside the main hull. Both factors are determinant for multihull overall stability (with weight).

But most of all if you look at the stability curves of a cat and a trimaran you will see that the one of the cat is much more brusque. It goes up on a steep curve and that it come out almost vertically. On a trimaran the curve is much softer meaning that you will stay almost instantly without stability at a big angle of heel on a cat, while that happens on a more progressive way on a trimaran, giving you more time to react.

On a trimaran you can feel better when the boat is reaching the limit. Fast ones are designed to fly an amas and you can feel better when the main hull start to be light on the water than when one of the two hulls of a cat start to get really unloaded, also because that happen at a much bigger heel on a trimaran than on a cat.

I believe that is for all this that you can find approved as Class A boats, (regarding stability and other criteria) 32ft light trimarans while I don't know of any cat that pass the stability criteria with 32ft (the minimum I know is of is 35/36ft).
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Old 08-04-2016, 10:53   #44
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Re: Even mono sailors advise is appreciated

If the plan is to build then frankly I would start off with a donor boat. In the 40' range, something like a F40 cat, split it in half and then build the center hull. You would already have a pretty substantial mast that might work, a set of sails, and high volume amas that could be designed around. Since there are performance cats or tri's around in the 40, to, and 60' size you have a good number of options to buy a racer and chop it to pieces.

Even if you just used the molds from a donor boat and tweaked it a little it would likely cost far less than building from scratch.


Personally I think cruising trimarans are rare because I really think to be done well they need to be big, as in over 60' big. And for the cost of building a boat this size you don't get much room. You have also started to bump up against the maximum size that can even get into a marina for an end tie, let alone find a slip. There simply aren't that many placed in the world to dock a 60'x60' trimaran. So logistics start to be a much bigger issue.

Much like cats in the sub 35' range just don't work well in my experience (without feeling like you are camping), I don't think a sub 50' tri is really going to work terribly well. Sure it can be built (see the Neel) but you trade a lot of performance to do so, and I am not sure that the Neel 45 is really any faster than a performance Cat the same size. If anything I think the Neel will wind up slower and have less room than a performance cat would.


As for the Arc as a standard... It is interesting for sure, but i don't think it really tells you much. Miles covered per day on the rumb line is of marginal worth. Just take a look at the average speeds of boats on the Transpac compared to the average miles sailed per day as an example. Boats typically show up as sailing much slower than they did because the distance traveled is so much greater than the strait line distance.
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Old 08-04-2016, 11:17   #45
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Re: Even mono sailors advise is appreciated

Why not a Dragonfly 35?

They make one fitted out for cruising for realistic money.

The OP did not mention what the boat would be used for, so I think we're flailing around a bit here. But if it's cruising two-up with minimal gear, without ocean crossing duty, it could work.

The retractable amas are a huge boon for European waters, where marina berths for multihulls is a PITA and can be expensive.
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