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Old 17-01-2016, 03:48   #1
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Endurance 37 Cutter Rig?

Hi,

I'm at the stage on my Endurance 37 cutter rebuild project where I have to order the sails and standing rigging. Our cruising range will be the Med and Canary Islands after delivery from UK.

One sailmaker tells me that Running Backstays are a PITA and that I should fit Jumper struts. Another tells me that runners are more effective and struts will mess up his beautiful sails. He adds that I should ask for advice from people who sail these or similar boats.

I have a new (to me) mast which has no inner forestay fittings so it will need some modification no matter what I do, unless I go for a sloop rig - no mast mods but reduced options for choice of sail plan.

So, the question. Which sailmaker is right and is the sloop rig a viable option? Other recommendations are very welcome!

Cheers,

Paul
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Old 17-01-2016, 06:16   #2
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Re: Endurance 37 Cutter Rig?

Hi Camperwind,

I just recently bought an Endurance 35 Ketch in Italy, it would be interesting to me if you could tell me what size's of standing rigging are you replacing with new i.e fore stay backstay etc....

My Endurance will require the teak tobe taken up have you had the teak removed or was it GRP

Lots of questions as I'm just on the start of my project

Thanks
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Old 17-01-2016, 07:39   #3
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Re: Endurance 37 Cutter Rig?

Hey Paul,

Nice choice in boat! We were going to get an Endurance 37, but a huge traffic accident on the M27 stopped us getting to the boat yard before it sold.

I digress. We have a cutter rigged ketch with a split backstay and runners (the runners directly oppose the inner forestay, whereas the split backstay opposes the forestay). To be honest, the runners are a pain in the ass - they're in the way on our side decks, we have to have them wound on most times when sailing up or downwind, and I can see them getting in the way one time during a gybe.... Also, with the cutter rig we have to tack both headsails with can be quite time consuming. If I was going to build the boat again, I'd definitely fit a self tacking jib / staysail.

Then again, I don't know too much about jumper struts so maybe I just need to be working the runners a bit better. Going for a "standard" sloop would indeed be a lot easier, but then having a cutter gives you options - a BIG genoa for those light wind days, and a heavy duty staysail for when things get a bit gnarly.

As for sailmakers, Jeckells have done some work for us and are ok. Friends have Kemp and North sails and swear by them.

Sorry, probably not been a lot of help here. Just my thoughts on it.

n
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Old 17-01-2016, 09:00   #4
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Re: Endurance 37 Cutter Rig?

We also are a cutter rigged ketch. We have jumpers to the upper spreaders where the inner stay is attached. The jumpers are steel with 3-part blocks. The jumpers are tightened on dedicated winches port & starboard. The 3-part block is belayed to a pad-eye on the deck by a large snap shackle so the jumper on the lee side can be moved to the shrouds. This is desirable for us because the top of the slack 3-part bangs against the boom. For your boat size I would suggest Dynema and no multi-part blocks. You could use a single winch with the port & starboard led through line clutches. You may not even need a winch. We had none on the Morgan 37 I raced many years ago.


Tacking for us is a pain, not done quickly. We also have a fixed stay to the lower spreaders. The combination of these two inner stays makes it impossible to tack the 135% genoa without partially furling the genoa. The cutter sail tacks easily. It is a 2/3 fractional with only about 3 feet of overlap at the mast. My opinion, the cutter staysail should be heavy and cut very flat for use in storm conditions. Ours also gets used inside the genoa between close reach and broad reach.
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Old 17-01-2016, 09:42   #5
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Re: Endurance 37 Cutter Rig?

Hi Nicholson58,

Thanks for the reply, that sounds complicated rigging, I like to keep things simple. More complex it is more goes wrong.

You mentioned Dynema it seems to be the latest craze for rigging on yachts is this expensive to purchase and can you get it in coils so a DIY person can set up the rigging saving in expense.

Appericate the input
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Old 17-01-2016, 09:55   #6
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Re: Endurance 37 Cutter Rig?

Just run a permanent (ie:not running) stay on each side from the staysail location on the mast to aft of the most aft chainplate on the deck. Plenty of cruising cutters are designed that way.
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Old 17-01-2016, 10:36   #7
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Re: Endurance 37 Cutter Rig?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheechako View Post
Just run a permanent (ie:not running) stay on each side from the staysail location on the mast to aft of the most aft chainplate on the deck. Plenty of cruising cutters are designed that way.
Unfortunately, that often fouls the boom & mainsail, hence why a lot of runners are designed as movable....

It's worth mentioning if the staysail is within 6% of the forestay, runners aren't needed at all (if you can work that into the setup?)

n
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Old 17-01-2016, 11:08   #8
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Re: Endurance 37 Cutter Rig?

We have over 75,000 miles on our Endurance 35 cutter. The mast is 42 ft, stepped on deck with permanent aft intermediates to oppose the pull of the inner forestay (I can go out to the boat and measure the location if you want). We have lord nelsons/rat lines between the port aft intermediate and the aft lower so use baggy wrinkle to prevent chafe on the main. That being said we rarely have the main laying against the shrouds as we drop it as soon as the wind is aft of the beam and run with head sails only - way easier on the helm - no need for preventers or vangs. The staysail sheets to blocks on the inside of either cap rail which allows infinite control of sail shape - it is the first sail up and the last one down - sheets right on the centre line for motor sailing adding 1/2 knot and eases the roll. I would not change anything.
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Old 17-01-2016, 11:16   #9
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Re: Endurance 37 Cutter Rig?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Madrugada View Post
Hi Camperwind,

I just recently bought an Endurance 35 Ketch in Italy, it would be interesting to me if you could tell me what size's of standing rigging are you replacing with new i.e fore stay backstay etc....

My Endurance will require the teak tobe taken up have you had the teak removed or was it GRP

Lots of questions as I'm just on the start of my project

Thanks
Hi Madrugada,

hanks for the input, I saw your discussion on a previous thread. I'm working my way through the sums on the rig and will have them checked by a grown-up when that's done. The roller reefing I want to use is limited to an 8mm forestay but I'll have to chooses another if 8mm is too small. I'll let you know the outcome.

My hull is ferro with a plywood deck that was clearly rotten along with much of the cockpit, I already knew that my boat also needed a new cockpit, wiring and galley so that was no surprise. There was plenty that I didn't expect though! I learnt that if the deck is rotten the beams etc may not be too good, especially the ones you can't see!

Cheers,

Paul
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Old 17-01-2016, 11:24   #10
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Re: Endurance 37 Cutter Rig?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Madrugada View Post
Hi Nicholson58,

Thanks for the reply, that sounds complicated rigging, I like to keep things simple. More complex it is more goes wrong.

You mentioned Dynema it seems to be the latest craze for rigging on yachts is this expensive to purchase and can you get it in coils so a DIY person can set up the rigging saving in expense.

Appericate the input
Its appropriate for our rig. (80 ft) It took a bit of head banging to figure out. You can find Dyneema on line. We often buy the short ends at the ship's store of Torresen's. These are sold at 1/2 to 2/3 regular price and will be up to about 80 feet. Many chandleries do this. I managed to pick up a couple for the forestay drums. I would not hesitate to use this instead of SS cable especially on your smaller rig. On the Morgan 37 we simply ran through a block to a cleat. You apply pressure as the mast is thumping about and take in the slack on each wave. If you use a rope clutch this will be easy.

https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=dyneema+rope simple Google search for Dyneema.

You can also find yacht braid at McMaster McMaster-Carr
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Old 17-01-2016, 12:41   #11
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Re: Endurance 37 Cutter Rig?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ausnp84 View Post
Unfortunately, that often fouls the boom & mainsail, hence why a lot of runners are designed as movable....

It's worth mentioning if the staysail is within 6% of the forestay, runners aren't needed at all (if you can work that into the setup?)

n
Actually they are often not much further aft than the aft lower. A few inches..
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Old 17-01-2016, 13:48   #12
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Re: Endurance 37 Cutter Rig?

Put thousands of miles on our W32 cutter with running backstays. They were not a problem. Used a four part tackle with coated wire for the stay. Would use synthetic line today for less weight and chafe. Stowed them to a padeye just aft of the cap stay where they didn't affect the mainsail at all. First, with the 43' LeFiell stick on the Westsail, they were really only needed in stronger winds. Not that I'd go without them but didn't use them for casual light to moderate wind sailing and, on passages, you tack/jibe so seldom. On my last passage jibed once in over 2,000 miles. From hard on the wind to a close reach, left them set up on a tack as they didn't effect the boom. On beam to broad reaches would haul in the boom a bit before tacking/jibing and set up the runner, then tack.

Can't see how a permanent stay to triangulate the staysail stay would NOT interfere with the main when off the wind. Aft lowers chafe on the main on a broad reach, a wire to the staysail position would be worse.
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Old 17-01-2016, 15:53   #13
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Re: Endurance 37 Cutter Rig?

I have converted more than one sloop to a double headsail rig and have owned and sailed true cutter rigs with running back stays. They may not be a PITA but when sailing solo now more thing you need to do. The best solution is the ones recommended with the permanent intermediate back stays attached to the mast at the same point as the staysail stay.

The important part is the location at deck level. The recommended formula for location is one inch of drift aft from upper point of attachment on the mast for every foot of height. it will be aft of your lower shrouds but not enough to be a problem.
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Old 17-01-2016, 18:35   #14
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Re: Endurance 37 Cutter Rig?

My thoughts and my Swanson 36 is a Cutter. Double spreader rig, in line spreaders (not swept aft), inner forestay from upper spreaders and parallel to the forestay. It looks like a Cutter! Furlers to each headsail. Running backstays.
In recent years some 30,000 nm's of blue water cruising out of Tasmania, all conditions.
First, I seldom run both headsails together. For me they are a sail reduction setup.
And the running backstays are not always used and in any case are not hard to set up. All from the cockpit.

And my genny does tack around the inner forestay except in light airs....then no hardship going forward.

Cutter....best ever cruising rig!
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Old 17-01-2016, 20:24   #15
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Re: Endurance 37 Cutter Rig?

I have aft intermediates (clearly visible in the attached photo) and the chainplates are only a few inches aft of my aft lower shrouds. They don't interfere with the boom or the mainsail. The fact that they do, to be perfectly honest, is so insignificant as to be inconsequential. They keep my rig perfectly secure and have done so for the last 31 years. This includes bluewater passages. There is no discernible wear on my mainsail. I have never had my sailmaker remark on any apparent chafing to the fabric or the stitching. I would advise and recommend a similar arrangement to anyone with a cutter rig.
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