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Old 17-01-2016, 22:33   #16
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Re: Endurance 37 Cutter Rig?

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We also are a cutter rigged ketch. We have jumpers to the upper spreaders where the inner stay is attached. The jumpers are steel with 3-part blocks. The jumpers are tightened on dedicated winches port & starboard.
N58, I think that you have some nomenclature mixup here. Sounds to me like you are describing running backs, not jumpers. Jumpers are a set of fixed stays running from near the masthead over short struts which angle forward at the attachment point of the inner forestay and thence back to the mast an equal distance below the struts. this triangulated stay stiffens the mast in way of the inner forestay and in theory obviates the need for runners. Lots of older cutters, especially with timber masts used this system.

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Old 18-01-2016, 11:55   #17
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Re: Endurance 37 Cutter Rig?

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Originally Posted by Orion Jim View Post
I have aft intermediates (clearly visible in the attached photo) and the chainplates are only a few inches aft of my aft lower shrouds. They don't interfere with the boom or the mainsail. The fact that they do, to be perfectly honest, is so insignificant as to be inconsequential. They keep my rig perfectly secure and have done so for the last 31 years. This includes bluewater passages. There is no discernible wear on my mainsail. I have never had my sailmaker remark on any apparent chafing to the fabric or the stitching. I would advise and recommend a similar arrangement to anyone with a cutter rig.
Yeah, been trying to say that but evidently it's too hard to look at the pics!
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Old 18-01-2016, 12:27   #18
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Re: Endurance 37 Cutter Rig?

I have an Endurance 37 Cutter. Nothing fancy on the rigging. Split backstay. No runners. 4 stays on each side. I'm 42' off the water, keel stepped.

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Old 18-01-2016, 14:46   #19
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Re: Endurance 37 Cutter Rig?

Guys,

Thanks for all the inputs, they have been great! It looks like a choice between runners and fixed intermediates. I do have an unused set of chain plates from when the previous owner moved the mast foot forward. They are about 60cm aft of the aft lowers so I'll have to check that if we fit intermediates they won't be too far back. Dyneema seems like the best material for either choice.

Cheers,
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Old 18-01-2016, 16:52   #20
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Re: Endurance 37 Cutter Rig?

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Originally Posted by Camberwind View Post
Guys,

Thanks for all the inputs, they have been great! It looks like a choice between runners and fixed intermediates. I do have an unused set of chain plates from when the previous owner moved the mast foot forward. They are about 60cm aft of the aft lowers so I'll have to check that if we fit intermediates they won't be too far back. Dyneema seems like the best material for either choice.

Cheers,
Couple of thoughts.
be aware that Dyneema might "sing" in the wind. My running backstays were SS, no probelm, but I replaced them with Dyneema and they can sing if too tight.
Your mainsail will rub on the runners probably and chafe at the batten pockets. With my fully battened main I had to have the pockets reinforced with a non chafing material.
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Old 18-01-2016, 17:27   #21
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Re: Endurance 37 Cutter Rig?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
N58, I think that you have some nomenclature mixup here. Sounds to me like you are describing running backs, not jumpers. Jumpers are a set of fixed stays running from near the masthead over short struts which angle forward at the attachment point of the inner forestay and thence back to the mast an equal distance below the struts. this triangulated stay stiffens the mast in way of the inner forestay and in theory obviates the need for runners. Lots of older cutters, especially with timber masts used this system.

Jim
I noticed after my fat fingers pressed send. You are totally correct. We have running backs. Our shrouds are pretty well in line with the mast. There are lowers from the lower spreader to a little aft. You can see all of this in the photo in my previous post. The mast is 7-1/2 x 12 section and is butt spliced at about the middle so - about 1/2 inch wall thickness for about 12 feet at the splice. I think we could sail without shrouds up to about 5 knots wind. The mast will stand alone unrigged if necessary. We often stow the running backs unless the winds are up and the sea is lumpy.

I have sailed or raced old boats with running backs for 40 years so I'm comfortable with the concept. Having ours rigged to the aft of the cockpit makes the whole thing easy.
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Old 19-01-2016, 00:49   #22
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Re: Endurance 37 Cutter Rig?

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Originally Posted by Cheechako View Post
Yeah, been trying to say that but evidently it's too hard to look at the pics!
Interesting.... we originally had this setup on our 17m mast (runners *just* aft of our aft lowers) and were specifically told by the mast supplier that the angle was too shallow and they needed to have a greater distance aft of the mast to oppose the forces from the staysail.

All depends on the rig really...

n
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Old 19-01-2016, 16:52   #23
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Re: Endurance 37 Cutter Rig?

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Originally Posted by ausnp84 View Post
Interesting.... we originally had this setup on our 17m mast (runners *just* aft of our aft lowers) and were specifically told by the mast supplier that the angle was too shallow and they needed to have a greater distance aft of the mast to oppose the forces from the staysail.

All depends on the rig really...

n
Not surprising. I think most runners are installed without block & tackle and without winches. This makes a shallow angle not much help.
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Old 19-01-2016, 17:01   #24
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Re: Endurance 37 Cutter Rig?

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Originally Posted by ausnp84 View Post
Interesting.... we originally had this setup on our 17m mast (runners *just* aft of our aft lowers) and were specifically told by the mast supplier that the angle was too shallow and they needed to have a greater distance aft of the mast to oppose the forces from the staysail.

All depends on the rig really...

n
Quite a few designers have done it this way. So I guess its mast sellers vs nautical architects! :>)
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Old 19-01-2016, 18:59   #25
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Re: Endurance 37 Cutter Rig?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicholson58 View Post
Not surprising. I think most runners are installed without block & tackle and without winches. This makes a shallow angle not much help.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheechako View Post
Quite a few designers have done it this way. So I guess its mast sellers vs nautical architects! :>)
Now I'm getting confused again! The running backstays that I've known are terminatd much further aft. Ours go right to the transom, thus never interfering with the boom. In our case, there is a 3:1 purchase lead to a barient 28 winch, and they are set up pretty hard. (This is on a fractional rig with mildly swept back spreaders.)

Stays that go just aft of the aft lowers are usually fixed, not running, for they don't interfere (much) when left in place... I thought that was the p oint of the location!

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Old 19-01-2016, 19:26   #26
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Re: Endurance 37 Cutter Rig?

Keep in mind the location at the mast is all important for a cutter.
In my case the running back stays hit the mast at the upper spreaders and so does the inner forestay. Than is why the boom is affected if the leeward stay is left in place.
Stays from the masthead can be left.
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Old 19-01-2016, 19:49   #27
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Re: Endurance 37 Cutter Rig?

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Originally Posted by patprice View Post
Keep in mind the location at the mast is all important for a cutter.
In my case the running back stays hit the mast at the upper spreaders and so does the inner forestay. Than is why the boom is affected if the leeward stay is left in place.
Stays from the masthead can be left.
I guess it depends most upon the length of the boom. On traditional cutters where the boom might even extend past the transom, you are absolutely correct. On some more modern designs, if the runners go to the transom, the boom clears neatly. The sail will still interfere with the runner should you gybe unexpectedly, but little happens as a result (besides a bit of embarrassment).

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Old 20-01-2016, 01:26   #28
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Re: Endurance 37 Cutter Rig?

Quote:
Originally Posted by patprice View Post
Keep in mind the location at the mast is all important for a cutter.
In my case the running back stays hit the mast at the upper spreaders and so does the inner forestay. Than is why the boom is affected if the leeward stay is left in place.
Stays from the masthead can be left.
Same for us!

I know someone with a cutter rigged ketch (with runners), so every time he gybes in heavy weather (running jib & mizzen) he needs to swap the fore and aft mast runners... I tell ya, it's never easy

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Old 20-01-2016, 14:12   #29
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Re: Endurance 37 Cutter Rig?

First you have to decide if you want the staysail stay to be removable or not. Can be handy in light airs to take it off for easier tacking of the headsail.

If it's removable then you can't use jumpers or fixed aft led intermediates. Only some variation on the runners theme.

A neat system I sailed with once was some semi fixed aft led intermediate's they were led much further aft than normal (but much further forward than runners) and run to highfeild levers. Most of the time they weren't touched, but when running or reaching for a while the leeward one was released so the main could be eased right out.

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Old 20-01-2016, 17:27   #30
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Re: Endurance 37 Cutter Rig?

For aft intermediates the miniumum aft lead would be about a 5 degree angle fore and aft, so sin 5 * height of staysail stay attachment on the mast gives the approximate minimum distance aft of the mast step. 7.5 degrees angle is much kinder on the mast.

Spindly rigs normally need runners. You can always add runners for strong winds and have jumpers or aft intermediates for moderate conditions.

Most of the endurances have bowsprits? In that case some sort of independent deck mounted stay is good security in case of a bobstay or bowsprit failure.

Have you considered a Solent style stay to just below the masthead? If done right this needs no additional aft support.

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