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Old 28-01-2012, 17:53   #1
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Eliminating Boats with Liners - Advice

I've been pretty well convinced not to buy a boat that is build with a liner.

Reasons include:
  • *structural integrity can deteriorate over time as tabs/glue breaks loose
  • *difficulty in doing a proper survey, especially on chain plates
  • *difficulty in rewiring or fixing critical parts.

There may well be additional reasons, but that list seems to cover most I am aware of.

So, now comes the question, which boats are built with liners, and what year did that boat brand start having liners?

I would guess, but don't know, that Bavaria's, Hunter's, Beneteau and Jeanneaus are built with liners after a certain year.

I will be looking for a ~40 foot with hopefully significant interior space, which the above all have.

As example, I believe the Morgan 416 is not tabbed/lined.

If anyone can make a short list or add to a short list of those that are tabbed/lined, I would much appreciate it.
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Old 28-01-2012, 18:07   #2
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Re: Eliminating boats with liners - advice

Most builders started using liners after about 1962...

A liner is not going to simply break loose from the hull unless the boat was built to sub-standards to begin with. If you're looking at older boats, the chain plates will likely be exposed, either from the manufacture, or from previous owners.

Wiring and plumbing is a valid issue. But, I wouldn't limit my choices for that reason alone. There's too many really good boats out there with hull liners.

Otherwise, the only boat I've actually looked at that doesn't have a liner is a Pearson Triton.
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Old 28-01-2012, 18:26   #3
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Re: Eliminating boats with liners - advice

I live on and cruise a 35 y.o. Morgan OI 33. I would not dream of buying a boat w/o a molded FG liner. After 35 years mine looks "as new". Over the years I have seen many "Premium" boats with crapped out "soft" liners.

I'm calling BS!
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Old 28-01-2012, 18:48   #4
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Re: Eliminating boats with liners - advice

I have a Beneteau 432 1987
It has a liner and plenty of access and no problem running hoses or rewiring.
If you prefer not to have a lined boat, that is your choice. Good luck with whatever boat you buy.
Happy sailing.
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Old 28-01-2012, 19:15   #5
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Re: Eliminating Boats with Liners - Advice

You are overly concerned about this point. I have never seen a boat built with a liner where the liner was a structural member or where the chainplates were hidden behind them. I have owned a boat where some of the overhead light fixture wiring was hopelessly fixed inside a liner, but that was easily and aesthetically reworked. I haven't seen any that had critical parts inaccessible.

A boat with a liner will be lower maintenance and in much better shape if it is an older boat than one with soft liners. A no-liner boat with a good finish would be best, of course.

Personally, I have owned two boats with liners and would not shy away from them, and would prefer older boats to have them.

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Old 28-01-2012, 19:19   #6
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Re: Eliminating Boats with Liners - Advice

Our Wauquiez Pretorien is stick built, no liner.
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Old 28-01-2012, 19:54   #7
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Re: Eliminating Boats with Liners - Advice

Certainly glad my '78 model has liners. With all the port leaks it had there would not have been any interior structure left if not. As it is, had some fascia and trim problems to refinish and replace some small trim pieces.

Only takes a few minutes to remove panels for chain plate inspection.
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Old 28-01-2012, 20:11   #8
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Re: Eliminating Boats with Liners - Advice

Another issue with liners ( says the girl who has a boat with a liner), is that it limits access to the hull. If my boat were to be holed, chances are I am going over board to fix it from the water side. Before taking my boat offshore for any distance, it would be prudent for me to create strategic access ports in the liner to get to the hull easier ( called "strategery").
Having said all that, my two different friends that were holed in the gulf, one had a liner, one didnt. Both sank because the damage was inaccessible.

Liners are a great way to stiffen up a boat, never heard of one coming apart. Plus it is good way to beat condensation aboard.

Hope that helps, I'd prefer no liner, but there are some damn fine boats with em( says the girl who has a boat with a liner)

Cheers,
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Old 29-01-2012, 10:54   #9
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Re: Eliminating Boats with Liners - Advice

Quote:
Originally Posted by avb3 View Post
If anyone can make a short list or add to a short list of those that are tabbed/lined, I would much appreciate it.
Sabres (at least the older ones) do not have liners.
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Old 29-01-2012, 11:09   #10
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Re: Eliminating Boats with Liners - Advice

One advantage of an unlined boat is the furniture is glassed to the hull. Everywhere that's done is a reinforcement for the hull and makes for a much solider boat. Liners usually are only bonded to the hull at a very few points and offer little or no reinforcement.

Having said the above, liners are a lot easier to maintain and pretty much look decent forever. About the only thing that will hurt them is cutting into it for equipment. Especially a problem on the cabin top when gear is changed around.
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Old 29-01-2012, 11:15   #11
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Re: Eliminating Boats with Liners - Advice

Quote:
Originally Posted by avb3 View Post
I've been pretty well convinced not to buy a boat that is build with a liner.

Reasons include:
  • *structural integrity can deteriorate over time as tabs/glue breaks loose
  • *difficulty in doing a proper survey, especially on chain plates
  • *difficulty in rewiring or fixing critical parts.

There may well be additional reasons, but that list seems to cover most I am aware of.

So, now comes the question, which boats are built with liners, and what year did that boat brand start having liners?

I would guess, but don't know, that Bavaria's, Hunter's, Beneteau and Jeanneaus are built with liners after a certain year.

I will be looking for a ~40 foot with hopefully significant interior space, which the above all have.

As example, I believe the Morgan 416 is not tabbed/lined.

If anyone can make a short list or add to a short list of those that are tabbed/lined, I would much appreciate it.
Very dated and ill informed,

* No evidence of structural issues, any different from other GRP methods
* Chain plates are usually fully inspectable
* Liners dont make it any more difficult or easy to rewire or replumb.

* Liners add significant strength over non liners,
* Liners provide cleaner finish
* Protects wood from bilge water ( in certain designs)
* Ensures higher standard of build consistency

where is the evidence to back your claims, almost even production boat of note has a form of liner ( often partial liners).

I dont mind opinions, but you're views are not backed by any evidence, more informed by prejudices, that were mainly spread around the industry by certain firms , when liners arrived on the scene

Its like people arguing over structural adhesives versus tabbing

Dave
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Old 29-01-2012, 11:50   #12
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Re: Eliminating Boats with Liners - Advice

Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
more informed by prejudices, that were mainly spread around the industry by certain firms , when liners arrived on the scene
Practical Sailor perpetuates this idea in their boat reviews. I think that is a powerful voice to keep the idea alive.

For example from their review for my boat they state: "We’ve never been keen on molded pan interiors because they tend to condense moisture, make access to parts of the hull difficult, make for a noisier boat, and severely limit customization"
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Old 29-01-2012, 12:14   #13
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Re: Eliminating Boats with Liners - Advice

so back to the question, without knowing your price range I would bet the answer to getting a boat without a liner is - an OLD boat!

Liner construction has been around a LONG time! I would be more interested in knowing about the rep of a model itself than whether it has a liner! I mean if you found the perfect boat except that it had a liner, would you but it or not?
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Old 29-01-2012, 13:47   #14
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Re: Eliminating Boats with Liners - Advice

OK, I get it, this is almost like an anchor thread!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
Very dated and ill informed,
.......

I dont mind opinions, but you're views are not backed by any evidence, more informed by prejudices, that were mainly spread around the industry by certain firms , when liners arrived on the scene

Its like people arguing over structural adhesives versus tabbing

Dave
Dave, as I said, I was "pretty well convinced", and with comments made here I am vacillating again. I am more then willing to listen from those that are much better informed then myself on this issue.


Quote:
Originally Posted by RainDog View Post
Practical Sailor perpetuates this idea in their boat reviews. I think that is a powerful voice to keep the idea alive.

For example from their review for my boat they state: "We’ve never been keen on molded pan interiors because they tend to condense moisture, make access to parts of the hull difficult, make for a noisier boat, and severely limit customization"
Those seem like legitimate concerns to me, and one of the reasons my thoughts as OP were what they were. But, again, I am more then willing to listen and learn.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Lucas View Post
so back to the question, without knowing your price range I would bet the answer to getting a boat without a liner is - an OLD boat!

Liner construction has been around a LONG time! I would be more interested in knowing about the rep of a model itself than whether it has a liner! I mean if you found the perfect boat except that it had a liner, would you but it or not?
Boat price... under 100K, hence the reference to a Morgan 416. Perhaps the viewpoint I should take is that if two boats are equal in reputation and quality, I would probably lean to the non-liner one.

My biggest concern is the issue of access to inspect chain plates and the ability to run wire/plumbing.
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Old 29-01-2012, 13:52   #15
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Re: Eliminating Boats with Liners - Advice

So it sounds that you should just forget about this liner thing and go look at boats you like!

Liners don't mean you can not get to chainplates or to run wiring and plumbing etc. Lots of boats took all that into account when they nwere built (mine does).
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