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Old 29-01-2012, 14:26   #16
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Re: Eliminating Boats with Liners - Advice

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Originally Posted by avb3 View Post
My biggest concern is the issue of access to inspect chain plates and the ability to run wire/plumbing.
I have never seen a boat where the liner goes high enough to be a factor in chain plate access. Not saying they do not exist, just that a liner does not necessarily impact chain plates.
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Old 29-01-2012, 15:09   #17
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Re: Eliminating Boats with Liners - Advice

Liners can and do limit access,but that can be worked around.

One "advantage" however,seems to be that they prevent leaks ,yes leaks !,from dripping into the living areas from the inevitable condensation that occurs in cooler climates and colder waters (think breathing and cooking) or the water that can work its way below thru stressed fittings,thru bolts mast partners,etc.etc..

I dunno ,maybe I just have sailed older boats,but if one drives aboat to windward in any sort of a sea, It's been my experience that in time things get wet below from spray alone not to mention the various parts working and letting in some of that green stuff. You may not notice or mind those larger drops (trickles?) so much with a liner until you pump the bilge.
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Old 29-01-2012, 15:21   #18
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Re: Eliminating Boats with Liners - Advice

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Liners usually are only bonded to the hull at a very few points and offer little or no reinforcement.
I can't speak to all liner-built boats, but I can state that this is absolutely not true of my Beneteau 40.7. I've seen how they're built at the factory, and also been in many corners and have had both through-hulls and a keel window installed. The liner is coated in glue (I believe they use Plexis) across the entire bottom surface, then pressed into the hull while still in the mold and weighted down until cured. Every inch of the bottom of that liner is glued, not just the edges. The cutouts I have didn't even have any voids in the adhesive, and they were smack in the middle of the pan. I've seen the same from the few Oceanus models I've looked at closely.

I'd echo what others say that the pan has no impact access to the chain plates, anchors, or plumbing/electrical. Nothing is run under the pan, so there's nothing inaccessible. The chain plates are all easy to get at on my boat. The pan does make the bilge a little shallower, which is an issue only if the boat has a shallow bilge (like mine) to begin with.
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Old 29-01-2012, 15:32   #19
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Re: Eliminating Boats with Liners - Advice

What is a liner in the first place?
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Old 29-01-2012, 15:39   #20
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Re: Eliminating Boats with Liners - Advice

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What is a liner in the first place?

Inside the boat, a fiberglass "tub" that makes up the majority of the structure of the dinette and settee, etc. Used in place of building the interior structure from wood framing and panels.

In mine the floor, settee, dinette, v-berth, side walls, and headliner are all fiberglass.

The bulkheads and trim are wood.
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Old 29-01-2012, 18:52   #21
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Re: Eliminating Boats with Liners - Advice

AVB3, you hit the nail on the head - this really is like an anchor thread! Neither side of the argument is 100% correct. As always, it is a compromise. But structural strength doesn´t come into it.

We have had steel boats with timber lining and the wiring and chainplates were hidden from immediate view. It was a real pain to inspect the chainplates.

But they were steel so they were hermetic, no holes through the deck and had no leaks. However, doing deliveries to windward on some GRP boats with liner, we had leaks and the liner ensured that we couldn´t locate the origin of the leaks.

Now we have a GRP boat with ............... no liner. Bolts come through the deck and I am looking at them right now on the interior ceiling of the main cabin. Everything is visible and pretty much easy to access. It doesn´t look as beautiful as a liner.

Do you prefer functionality over aesthetics or vice versa? You want a liner to protect you from a leak, hide the origin of the leak and be beautiful or do you want easy access? Really, WHO CARES? There are more important things that you should be looking at on your future boat.
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Old 29-01-2012, 20:51   #22
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Re: Eliminating Boats with Liners - Advice

I think Tartans don't have liners..if that helps
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Old 29-01-2012, 21:10   #23
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Re: Eliminating Boats with Liners - Advice

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Originally Posted by RainDog View Post
Practical Sailor perpetuates this idea in their boat reviews. I think that is a powerful voice to keep the idea alive.

For example from their review for my boat they state: "We’ve never been keen on molded pan interiors because they tend to condense moisture, make access to parts of the hull difficult, make for a noisier boat, and severely limit customization"
Another respected voice on the subject (John Neale of Mahina.com):

Quote:
Internal stiffening systems (grid floor systems, and/or full-length and transverse glass over foam (not wooden) stringers) contribute greatly to the stiffness and rigidity of a boat. If the interior woodwork is just glued or lightly attached to a hull liner pan or to the hull, it’s not uncommon to discover it breaking loose after a few thousand miles of ocean sailing. Access to hull and deck areas is generally restricted when fiberglass liners and pans are used in construction, making equipment installation and leak stopping difficult. From a manufacturing standpoint, hull liners are substantially less expensive than “stick-built” interiors, but you won’t find them on top-end ocean cruising designs. This is one of the reasons for the large price difference between high-volume mass-produced French and German yards and higher quality, lower production builders.
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Old 29-01-2012, 21:23   #24
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Re: Eliminating Boats with Liners - Advice

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I think Tartans don't have liners..if that helps
Mine does
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Old 29-01-2012, 21:29   #25
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Re: Eliminating Boats with Liners - Advice

I have had five sailboats without liners. I could always see where the bulkheads tab into the hull. I am old school. I want to have access to every inch of my hull when I sail offshore. Liners remove options that I want to have in an emergency. That doesn't mean liner boats are bad. It does mean they don't work for me.
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Old 29-01-2012, 21:33   #26
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Re: Eliminating Boats with Liners - Advice

I also agree it is a personal choice.
Aesthetics and also an insulation barrier versus an open plan of the construction points

Delivered a custom 75 fiberglass maxi once where the owner was very much into minimalist design, so no liners, not doors on lockers (Nets), every fastening point could be seen.

The condensate transfer offshore Oregon coast in December was horrible!
I liked it in a storm but would not want to own it.
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Old 29-01-2012, 21:42   #27
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Re: Eliminating Boats with Liners - Advice

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I have had five sailboats without liners. I could always see where the bulkheads tab into the hull. I am old school. I want to have access to every inch of my hull when I sail offshore. Liners remove options that I want to have in an emergency. That doesn't mean liner boats are bad. It does mean they don't work for me.
How about naming those 5 boats, for the OPs perusal?

I don't know which I'd prefer, having only owned one boat.. But the idea of complete access seems nice. It was one of the stand-out points of the Tritons I looked at. Everything appeared incredibly easy to work on or modify. But, if the boat is designed well in the first place, it really shouldn't be an issue since you won't be modifying much. Unless getting a hole in the boat is your biggest concern.. if that's the case, I'd go with steel

It's been the standard for 40 years now, so apparently it works pretty well for most sailors
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Old 29-01-2012, 23:08   #28
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Re: Eliminating Boats with Liners - Advice

There are different levels of liner.

There is what I would call a pan, which comes up to about knee high.
There's what I would call a tub, which comes up most or all the way up to the deck.
And then there is a full lining with pieces that cover the overhead too.

Then there is also a floor grid system which is similar to a pan but is specially engineered and specially attached to the hull to reinforce the hull more so than other liners.

Past about the mid-60's most mass production boats went to liners of some sort.

My personal feeling is that a decent pan can be tabbed to the hull everywhere if it isn't already making the hull stronger and that except for the sole most pans don't follow the hull so there shouldn't be too many places that can't be made accessible with a little judicious use of a Sawzall or jigsaw.

Tubs on the other hand start to cover the hull with little space between and there is a lot more of the hull that can never be made accessible.

Overhead liners are the worst. In most cases changing or re-bedding deck hardware requires trashing the overhead.
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Old 30-01-2012, 00:09   #29
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Re: Eliminating Boats with Liners - Advice

I am against liners. My first boat had one, my next two did not. I will never buy a boat with a liner again. It is a giant waste of useful space.
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Old 30-01-2012, 08:28   #30
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Re: Eliminating Boats with Liners - Advice

Interesting opinions, but what is a liner? I was thinking there was a sheet of goods laid between the hull and the interior tub, I don't think that's what was meant now. Is the liner a molded interior tub or structure that is fitted inside the hull during construction and capped with the deck? Sorry to be so ill informed, but I'll be looking at older boats and need to address such an issue if it is really a concern. I will be making interior mods I'm sure of it, so if this linner thing is a limitation, I'd sure like to know too....
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