Electronic Autohelm or Self Steering Wind Vane?

[dcstrng]

Originally Posted by Neptune's Gear

Look at the Golden Globe boats. Lots of issues with wind vanes. They are not infallible, wont steer to waypoints/tracks, and don't work well downwind in fast boats that accelerate a lot in waves - they operate in apparent wind, and take the rapid speed increases as wind shifts, then they try to steer to correct the "course change", when in fact there isn't one...

Have zero direct experience, but have pondered this issue since I plan to add something to ours -- looks like it may be peculiar to faster boats that plane often or continuously -- with changes in apparent wind not dissimilar to fast multi-hulls... on the otherhand, many slower boats (that primarily don't plane/surf) appear to have used wind-vanes of various styles/types quite successfully for years and thousands of mile... probably no universal answer, but must be matched to the boat (expected performance envelop), and probably to a lesser degree the notion of the skipper/owner.

[hpeer]

Originally Posted by LauraleeG

Wow, so informative... and indicates so much we dont know!!! How do you learn all this stuff? Gotta say..feel a bit ( lot) intimidated right now.

I think the consensus is:
1- understand your needs and desires, games are generally not for confined waters
2- when at all possible obtain both
3- hinted at is cost, top end electronic AP’s are expensive. CPT is an option.
4- the tiller pilot/vane combo helps keep cost down

[Matt Johnson]

Originally Posted by hpeer

4- the tiller pilot/vane combo helps keep cost down

But does it? Assuming new:

1) Raymarine Type 1 autopilot with the super reliable linear drive is $3300

2) Cape Horn (one of the lower cost vanes) is $3700
Add even a cheap Raymaine tiller pilot $400
$4100 for vane and tiller pilot.

Install cost will be higher on the Raymarine, but if DIY both, final price will be close.

https://www.defender.com/product3.js...713&id=3727781
http://caphorn.com/en/price-in-dollars/

Savings come if buying a used set-up either way, but vane will be low priced usually.


Matt

[Matt Johnson]

BTW- We installed two redundant autopilots on the last boat (below deck Raymarine and a CPT), and were going to do the same on this one, but the cost of two complete higher end below deck systems was greater than finding an old Cape Horn and putting it on the transom as a back-up.

We've used our Cape Horn, Windpilot and Aries in the past, so have a modest general feel for them by now. I'm in the minority, but I much prefer the feel and precision of an autopilot to a vane. Ours now just sits at the back of the boat waiting for a day that the hydraulic misses a beat.


Matt

[Sea Angel1]

I agree to have both, an electrical AP for easy use but with a back up spare and a wind vane for long distance, as said for turns over 12 hrs or so. But choose one with an own steering rudder for cases that you main rudder does fail, because in that case your electrical AP does not work either.
I used once a long time an Aries, but with back winds the function was far from optimal. So before the choice is made, check with other experiences on your specific S/Y with a long or short keeler.

[Sea Angel1]

Another disadvantage of a wind vane is the mounting on the stern. Choose one which is easy dismounting. Especially sailing in the Med, because of the stern-mooring in marinas and ports. Also the mounting on the transom, with the nowadays used bathing platforms, is somewhat complicated.

[conachair]

Originally Posted by funjohnson

But does it? Assuming new:

1) Raymarine Type 1 autopilot with the super reliable linear drive is $3300

2) Cape Horn (one of the lower cost vanes) is $3700
Add even a cheap Raymaine tiller pilot $400
$4100 for vane and tiller pilot.

Install cost will be higher on the Raymarine, but if DIY both, final price will be close.

https://www.defender.com/product3.js...713&id=3727781
Price in dollars – CapHorn – Régulateur d’allure intégré

Savings come if buying a used set-up either way, but vane will be low priced usually.


Matt

Not that hard to rig a cheap tiler pilot to the vane, electric does the control, windvane provide the power. I would have gone that far if the tiller pilot was actually reliable

[hpeer]

Originally Posted by funjohnson

But does it? Assuming new:

1) Raymarine Type 1 autopilot with the super reliable linear drive is $3300

2) Cape Horn (one of the lower cost vanes) is $3700
Add even a cheap Raymaine tiller pilot $400
$4100 for vane and tiller pilot.

Install cost will be higher on the Raymarine, but if DIY both, final price will be close.

https://www.defender.com/product3.js...713&id=3727781
http://caphorn.com/en/price-in-dollars/

Savings come if buying a used set-up either way, but vane will be low priced usually.

http://www.cptautopilot.com/order.php

Matt

Matt,

Not the comparison I was making. I was assuming AP + Vane

1- $3,300 + $3,700 = $7,000

2- PELAGIC ($800?) + $3,700 = $4,500.

Agreed if you go with just an AP. But in that case I would get a CPT.

$2,100 + SPARE motor/control box $1,500 = $3,600 and you have a completely spare unit that you can easily install yourself in a couple of hours.

Carrying spare major components resolves some reliability issues. And CPT is also know to be super reliable.

[hpeer]

Originally Posted by conachair

Not that hard to rig a cheap tiler pilot to the vane, electric does the control, windvane provide the power. I would have gone that far if the tiller pilot was actually reliable

Take a look at Pelagic’s site. It’s a far more reliable tiller pilot. If for nothing else than the ram is separate from the gyro. My RM AP’s failed because rubber bits got under the gyro and jammed it. Can’t happen in a Pelagic as they are physically separate units.

https://pelagicautopilot.com/

[conachair]

Originally Posted by hpeer

Take a look at Pelagic’s site. It’s a far more reliable tiller pilot. If for nothing else than the ram is separate from the gyro. My RM AP’s failed because rubber bits got under the gyro and jammed it. Can’t happen in a Pelagic as they are physically separate units.

https://pelagicautopilot.com/

Looks like a nice bit of kit but having managed just fine for many years and miles think the money would be better off spent down the market and on dyneema/LEDs

Might get round to making one some day for a fraction of the cost though.

[Matt Johnson]

Originally Posted by hpeer

Matt,

Not the comparison I was making. I was assuming AP + Vane

1- $3,300 + $3,700 = $7,000

2- PELAGIC ($800?) + $3,700 = $4,500.

Agreed if you go with just an AP. But in that case I would get a CPT.

$2,100 + SPARE motor/control box $1,500 = $3,600 and you have a completely spare unit that you can easily install yourself in a couple of hours.

Carrying spare major components resolves some reliability issues. And CPT is also know to be super reliable.

Okay.... then below deck and CPT - which is what we had on our first Atlantic crossing.

The CPT works, but it has nowhere near the ability of predicting the wave pattern or controlling the boat as well as a new below deck unit. Due to the 9-axis gyros and enhanced steering algorithms, these things helm light years ahead of past gen autopilots when you're in a cross swell or are sailing fast downwind. The OP does have a moderate weight fin keel afterall.

The newer CPT may be better, but I'd think your PyPilot computer and cpt drive motor is a smarter set-up if you want to keep with a wheel pilot.

Matt

[hpeer]

Originally Posted by conachair

Looks like a nice bit of kit but having managed just fine for many years and miles think the money would be better off spent down the market and on dyneema/LEDs

Might get round to making one some day for a fraction of the cost though.

Yup, personal choices.

[hpeer]

Originally Posted by funjohnson

Okay.... then below deck and CPT - which is what we had on our first Atlantic crossing.

The CPT works, but it has nowhere near the ability of predicting the wave pattern or controlling the boat as well as a new below deck unit. Due to the 9-axis gyros and enhanced steering algorithms, these things helm light years ahead of past gen autopilots when you're in a cross swell or are sailing fast downwind. The OP does have a moderate weight fin keel afterall.

The newer CPT may be better, but I'd think your PyPilot computer and cpt drive motor is a smarter set-up if you want to keep with a wheel pilot.

Matt

The PyPilot is still a bit of a learning curve. Weather helm and I’m on a 44’ 40,000lb cutter so there is that. But I think I’m committing to it over the (older) CPT simply because with my steel boat the compass is dicey and the PyPilot gives me the option of using GPS. But it’s still driving a CPT motor and wheel belt arrangement, which is very nicely done.

And I still have a tile up Aries that drives the tiller. I haven’t been using it for these shorter trips but will when doing longer passages.

[Mike Banks]

Cape horn wind system for sailing, or a Hydrovane if the boat has a hydraulic steering system.

GPS linked electronic autopilot, either electric or hydraulic is useful for no wind when motoring--but if funds are low--go with the wind system because generally you will be spending more time with wind than without it. It will cost about five grand fitted--maybe less.

If your current steering system is hydraulic, it may require some modification to use a Cape Horn wind system, but it would not for a Hydrovane which has its own rudder. It is used with the ship's rudder lashed midships.

On my vessel I had TMQ hydraulic steering with a system which using both a fluxgate compass as well as a GPS, one chose what one preferred using a switch on the control unit. I found that in reef waters GPS control was more accurate. The hydraulic system was high on battery load though--not a problem when motoring, but for an ocean crossing I would have had to use a Hydrovane--there would have been pretty much no other commercially available suitable system available which did not require extensive mods to the hydraulic system.

There are other wind vanes with their own rudders, but Hydrovane has a reliable pedigree. I had friends who relied on Hydrovane--they found it worked like a charm and was very reliable in some tough conditions.

[MJH]

Originally Posted by LauraleeG

You were all so helpful in the other thread about the shaft seals, thought I would pick your brains on the next job we have to do on our Landfall38: Self steering!
We are reading about the pros and cons of electronic vs wind self steering, and are currently leaning towards a wind system.
Thoughts on this? Would it depend on the passage planned with the boat ( gunkholing vs Bluewater)?
Give me your ideas please!!

The easy answer is windvane for offshore, autopilot for everything else.

~ ~ _/) ~ ~ MJH