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06-01-2018, 07:07
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#1
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Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Monterey, California
Boat: Westsail 32
Posts: 777
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Dumb questions about new sail
I just hoisted a new Dacron loose-footed mainsail, and have a few questions about it, especially regarding reefing.
My old sail is footed, and made of a very flexible multi-layer material, and is also fully battened. I have found it very easy to work with. I'm replacing it because the layers have started to separate, and it's days are probably numbered. The new sail has been extremely difficult to work with, which I assume is just because it's made of Dacron, and is brand new.
However, I also have questions about reefing. My old sail had additional rings on each side at each reefing cringle (at the tack). These are not installed on the new sail. I'm guessing I'll have to add these myself?
It also seems that once reefed, there is much more bulk of sail to manage (note that the reefing ties are not yet installed), again, probably owning to the fact that it's a new Dacron sail. Is this something that will get better with time?
Finally, because of the boom track on the mast, and how the sail slides are positioned, the boom falls well below the bulk of the sail when not in use. meaning that the sail isn't resting on the boom, but rather on the sail slides. Considering I use the boom to start a mast climb, I really don't like this situation, but can't really figure out a solution other than tying up a lifting line at the gooseneck of the boom somehow.
I'm not sure why these problems weren't present with my old sail, other than the fact that it's a footed sail, and the material is much softer. At this point, I don't feel comfortable sailing to Panama using this new sail, and think I'll stow it for the time being until I gain more confidence with it.
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06-01-2018, 07:27
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#2
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Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Marina Del Rey, CA
Posts: 350
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Re: Dumb questions about new sail
Additional ring on your old sail may be as a Cunningham.
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06-01-2018, 07:39
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#3
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Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2017
Posts: 58
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Re: Dumb questions about new sail
ahoy. Maybe I can answer a few of your questions
New sails come waxed, or should, gives them a nice crisp feel, sound, and shape. Your old sail is most likely the same material, just badly degraded limp and lifeless. The stitching I assume is why your old sail is falling apart, see the finger nail scratch test here. Lots of sails didn't use uv treated thread, a patch left uncovered in the sun will degrade too. Check your stitching , hand repairs are easy. Get a good book in sail maintaince and repair, our favorite is the sailmakers apprentice, a but overall but it has everything.
My old sail is footed, and made of a very flexible multi-layer material, and is also fully battened. I have found it very easy to work with. I'm replacing it because the layers have started to separate, and it's days are probably numbered. The new sail has been extremely difficult to work with, which I assume is just because it's made of Dacron, and is brand new.
Not seeing your old sail I can't say and don't even have a clue. What were these rings for even???? You'll need some sailmakers tools at the very least to add these, you don't want to mess this up a real loft might be what you're looking for. Where did this sail come from? You say new, and it looks new, where did you get it? Second hand, china, reputable loft?? What boat is it on??
However, I also have questions about reefing. My old sail had additional rings on each side at each reefing cringle (at the tack). These are not installed on the new sail. I'm guessing I'll have to add these myself?
Are both sails the same cloth weight? Will make a huge difference, have you weighed each sail for kicks? again new sails are waxed and crisp and don't like to fall into a small lump. Think starched shirt. They use a resiny hard type wax.
It also seems that once reefed, there is much more bulk of sail to manage (note that the reefing ties are not yet installed), again, probably owning to the fact that it's a new Dacron sail. Is this something that will get better with time?
Pretty confused here, I assume this is in the picture no? Sail resting on slides?? There's a track stop you can get for your boom to keep it where you want it, or anything on a track. I was very confused with this statement maybe you can elaborate and clarify.
Finally, because of the boom track on the mast, and how the sail slides are positioned, the boom falls well below the bulk of the sail when not in use. meaning that the sail isn't resting on the boom, but rather on the sail slides. Considering I use the boom to start a mast climb, I really don't like this situation, but can't really figure out a solution other than tying up a lifting line at the gooseneck of the boom somehow.
I'm not sure why these problems weren't present with my old sail, other than the fact that it's a footed sail, and the material is much softer. At this point, I don't feel comfortable sailing to Panama using this new sail, and think I'll stow it for the time being until I gain more confidence with it.[/QUOTE]
Hope this helps
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06-01-2018, 12:56
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#4
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Moderator
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: aboard, cruising in Australia
Boat: Sayer 46' Solent rig sloop
Posts: 28,438
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Re: Dumb questions about new sail
His "rings" are "dog bones". You take strong webbing --on our boat, we use 4 layers of the webbing, and hand stitch it, through the tack places, with a ring on each end, one on each side of the cringle. Each one has to be long enough to get onto the reefing horns over the buildup of the sail on the boom, so they are of different lengths, longer at the 2nd reef than the 1st, and at the 3rd than the 2nd. Measure first.
Ryban, you probably need a topping lift for that boom. It is a line from the masthead, usually comes around a cheek block on the boom, to a cleat. Also, you have a clew at the outboard end of the mainsail foot. Did you hook up the outhaul to it? That might well bring the boom up to the foot of the sail.
New sail fabric is normally crispish, and old dacron is very soft. About using the old main instead of the new one, first, try and drive a wood pencil through the cloth. If it penetrates, don't bother to install it. The fabric is shot. Sun deteriorates dacron. In the future, when you order a sail, you can request that PTFE thread be used for one or rows of the stitching, and it does not sun-rot. It will add to the cost of the sail, because the thread itself is more expensive, and the labor is more, too as it is a bit fiddly to deal with. But it is likely to save you the costs of re-stitching later on, at higher prices.
Ann
__________________
Who scorns the calm has forgotten the storm.
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06-01-2018, 14:13
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#5
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Senior Cruiser
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Port Moresby,Papua New Guinea
Boat: FP Belize Maestro 43 and OPBs
Posts: 12,888
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Re: Dumb questions about new sail
Quote:
Originally Posted by JPA Cate
His "rings" are "dog bones". You take strong webbing --on our boat, we use 4 layers of the webbing, and hand stitch it, through the tack places, with a ring on each end, one on each side of the cringle. Each one has to be long enough to get onto the reefing horns over the buildup of the sail on the boom, so they are of different lengths, longer at the 2nd reef than the 1st, and at the 3rd than the 2nd. Measure first.
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A fairly common alternative these days to dog bones is a dyneema line/loop permanently attached to the mast or boom which can be led up through the tack reef cringle and back down to a snap shackle.
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06-01-2018, 15:41
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#6
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Lower Chesapeake Bay Area
Boat: Bristol 27
Posts: 10,463
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Re: Dumb questions about new sail
Did you ever consider hanging out where you are for another year until you get everything straight on your boat and become more familiar with it?
The bulk you speak of when reefed is hopefully due to the fact you bought a heavy cruising sail .......mine is 8 oz and I haven't even started "real" cruising yet.
The old sail cover for the sail that came on the boat will barely cover the new sail due to it's thickness..........new sail is now 5 years old but still thick and strong
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06-01-2018, 18:26
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#7
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Marine Service Provider
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Working in St Augustine
Boat: Woods Vardo 34 Cat
Posts: 3,865
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Re: Dumb questions about new sail
Normally when you buy a sail from a local sailmaker, they come install the sail on your boat and teach you how to use it if you need help.
__________________
@mojomarine1
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06-01-2018, 18:44
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#8
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Moderator
Join Date: May 2008
Location: cruising SW Pacific
Boat: Jon Sayer 1-off 46 ft fract rig sloop strip plank in W Red Cedar
Posts: 21,156
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Re: Dumb questions about new sail
Ryban, from your description your old sail sounds as if it is a laminate sail. Further, it sounds like it is at the very end of its life span. Unlike dacron sails, laminate sails will self destruct suddenly and catastrophically. In your place, I'd be much more concerned about just that happening than with the common "new sail" issues you are fretting about.
IMO, setting out on a long passage with your old sail bent on is not a good idea. Get the sail slide problem sorted NOW, and start using the new sail. It will become more flexible and easier to flake with some use. Sort the reefing issues NOW, not somewhere at sea when the old main is suddenly confetti-ized. None of the problems you've mentioned are biggies, if addressed in port with at least some help available in any manhandling that is necessary.
Jim
__________________
Jim and Ann s/v Insatiable II, lying Port Cygnet Tasmania once again.
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06-01-2018, 19:06
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#9
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Moderator
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Channel Islands, CA
Boat: 1962 Columbia 29 MK 1 #37
Posts: 14,305
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Re: Dumb questions about new sail
My first thought is, what weight cloth did you get? Secondly the two cringles I think you are mentioning are the Cunningham on the luff and the flattening reef on the leech, not sure though. EDIT: I should read better! Ann is right! Dog bones.
Now when reefing you will be tying the reef lines around the sail and not the boom, right?
It would be nice to see shots of your sail up.
I am really lukewarm on that double hook you have there.
Also, I had an idea about your slides, if they are on the sail with small shackles. You might experiment with one, take it off and get some kind of metal rod like a screw driver really hot and apply it to the slide to reshape it. I am flying blind on this cuz I'd need to see the slides, but just another one of my crazy ideas...
Here's the reef hook I used to have on either side of the gooseneck... really common, worked well, you may know about all this already...
__________________
DL
Pythagoras
1962 Columbia 29 MKI #37
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07-01-2018, 23:12
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#10
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Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2015
Boat: Land bound, previously Morgan 462
Posts: 1,991
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Re: Dumb questions about new sail
If you want to step on the boom as you go aloft, don't use the hook on the boom to secure the tack or reefed tack. As mentioned in an earlier post, secure the tack using a short length of line running up and aft diagonally from one side of mast, through the tack grommet and across to other side of mast. This line is attached to mast at each side of mast by any method you prefer.
This is the method I always use since the tack hooks on my boat are not in the ideal position due to the tack grommet being placed too far forward in the sail.
This way your sliding gooseneck can be set a bit lower than the sail's foot if desired and you can step on the boom as you climb. Of course you must install a slide stop on the track below the gooseneck to set its position on the track.
Don't go to sea with that old delaminating sail.
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08-01-2018, 05:39
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#11
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Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Monterey, California
Boat: Westsail 32
Posts: 777
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Re: Dumb questions about new sail
To clarify, the old sail was a laminate, and is de-laminating in a few places, which is why I replaced it. So it has a very different feel than the new Dacron. I don't know the fabric weight, but I specified it would be used for long-distance cruising, so they probably gave me a heavier weight than your typical day sailer.
Indeed, the gooseneck track does not have a lock on it, so the boom falls to the bottom of the track when not in use. This is just something that was new to me, and seemed wrong, which is why I asked about it, but it doesn't really cause any problems.
Reef ties will of course not be tied around the boom, as they were with my old footed sail. I installed all the ties yesterday, and am fairly satisfied with the state of things.
To address the suggestion about staying put: the best thing to do would of course be hang around for a while, become an expert, and perfect the boat, but by the time I do that, I'll be out of money, and won't be fiscally able to tackle the very voyage I'd be working towards.
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