Dufour 455 vs Bavaria 46

[Xnnb]

Hi guys,

What would you choose:

Budget: €90k-100k
Want to go sailing in Saint Martin / Sint Maarten.
Want to rent it out for about 10 weeks a year to cover costs. (we can rent it out via our own network of people. We also know someone in Sint Maarten who can arrange everything and keep an eye on it.

I see there is a lot of difference in price in boats. I chartered a dufour 455 (2007/2008) once, and it sailed very well. But maybe it was not that well maintained, but it felt all a little bit light built / not very solid. Especially the interior.

On the other hand I know someone with a Bavaria 44 and that sailed quite well too, but personally I do not like the big genoa and furling mainsail that much. But it sailed well, and especially the interior looks well.

Further I notice some of the Dufour 455's are for sale already for a very long time. From Bavaria I know that there are many for sale.

So what is your opinion when comparing these boats. I am very curious and maybe my own observations do not hold much value / are biassed on two random situations.

Look forward to hear your opinion

[leftbrainstuff]

What I would buy is no help to you.

The plan is to buy a cheapish boat and rent it out.

So you want to be a charter company. Arranging is easy. Who will maintain it, rescue the renters and deal with the myriad of issues.

Probably cheaper to charter.

[skipmac]

If the boats are otherwise equal in age, condition, maintenance, etc (all very critical in an older boat) I would choose the Dufour.

Cover costs chartering an older boat? Not in a million years. Maybe, maybe pay some very small part of the costs of keeping a boat down islands and maybe even cover wear and tear, insurance and other costs to charter a boat.

[Xnnb]

Hi,

Thanks for the feedback. So we do not need to earn the boat back. Just cover expenses and if possible depreciation. Do we want to be a charter company? No.

We are 3 people within a large company. We know many many people who like sailing and and can fly for almost nothing. So we have already the option to rent out the boat for about 10 weeks a year at € 2.300 average per week.

The quote for the marina fees is € 5.5 k per year.
Insurance quote is about € 5k per year.
I calculate €7.5K a year on maintenance.
€ 5K depreciation a year.

A friend of mine lives in Sint Maarten and receives a fee for making the boat ready and managing on and ofboarding.

So to me it seems feasible. So i'm curious what i am missing here?

Second I value your opinion that you would choose the dufour. But it help to know why you would choose it.

Best

[boatman61]

Choose the one with the bigger engine and/or the interior that suits your ambitions best.

[skipmac]

Hi Xnnb,

With your potential for ready to go clients at your company I think you do have a potential for income. I agree that your estimates for expenses are not unreasonable however, being an absentee boat owner can potentially be an expensive proposition. Been there, done that.... more than once.

The problem is, a boat doesn't like sitting unused, for many reasons. One of the main ones is almost everything on a boat that is just setting tends to rust, corrode, mold, rot and generally go bad. A boat sitting tends to build up moisture and humidity that is one of the main contributors to all this. Pumps and motors that don't run on a regular basis tend to freeze up. Anything electrical tends to quit working.

If your friend can regularly (at least once a week) open the boat to air it out, run then engine, water system, pumps, etc, etc, etc it will help a lot. Otherwise, my experience, when I kept a boat in the Caribbean I would leave my boat sitting for a couple of months, fly down to sail for 2-3 weeks and end up spending the entire 2-3 weeks trying to get everything working again.

Then there are the uncommon problems that might happen. If an engine blows it could cost $10-$20,000 or more to repair or replace it. You will need new sails every few years or so, roughly $3,000 each.

These problems are just that much worse on an older boat.

Another issue you need to consider, since you would only have one boat to charter what do you do if a client shows up for a charter and the boat has a problem and can't be used? Will you charter a boat from another company for the client? Just refund all their expenses and pay for a hotel for them to stay in? Will your friend be able to go out to repair the boat or take spare parts if it breaks down during a charter?

Not saying it can't be done. It could work and you could cover some or all of the operating expenses. Just be prepared for unexpected costs and problems.

[Polux]

The Dufour is nicer, the Bavaria is stronger. Choose what you want.

If you want relevant information regarding that try to speak with big charter operators that have both boats on charter.

[Mithril Bham]

Welcome to the Caribbean. You are in for a ride.

Your plan sounds solid. I would suggest that you focus on written agreements with your friends that are enforceable & well understood.

I create a 20% reserve for maintenance. 20% of the gross revenue. Of course you value your use at the same price as your cohorts.

Having a local boat guy is golden as long as you are sure you can count on him and don't get ripped off.

St. Martin is not the BVI. More wear and tear on the boat.

I am currently building a small, niche, fleet with one boat in the Caribbean, two in the San Juan Islands, one in the Med and one in Tahiti. I managed a fairly large fleet of bareboats and wouldn't wish that on my worse enemy although it was instructive. Also had a boat in the BVI.

Good luck - It will be a challenge so I hope you make it fun.

I would suggest a live aboard captain who could stay on land when you are out or help as guide and instructor. Let him take it out a few weeks year. Earlier guy made a good point about boats sitting idle.

Oh yeah, unless things have changed I think the Bavaria a better boat than the Dufour (although Bavaria's are sort of dark below in the tropics). If it was between a Jeanneau and a Bavara it would be a more difficult choice.

[Xnnb]

Hey man.

What do you mean with St Maarten is not the BVI? Do you mean that winds are stronger in Sint Maarten why it has more wear and tear? Or other reasons?

[Mithril Bham]

Originally Posted by Xnnb

Hey man.

What do you mean with St Maarten is not the BVI? Do you mean that winds are stronger in Sint Maarten why it has more wear and tear? Or other reasons?

BVI much more sheltered waters.