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Old 11-11-2015, 12:26   #151
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Re: Does it really matter which damn sailboat you pick to go down the west coast?

I don't know why everyone busts on Bumfuzzle so much. They may do some things in a Keystone Cop kind of way, but the fact remains that they have had some pretty cool adventures, on land and on sea, have lived more fully and on the edge than most people would ever dare, and write a pretty entertaining blog to boot.

All in all I say thumbs up to the Bumfuzzles.
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Old 11-11-2015, 12:31   #152
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Re: Does it really matter which damn sailboat you pick to go down the west coast?

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They were lucky to make it as far as they did.
They did circumnavigate, they just had to do some major $$$ repairs to the hulls in Australia.

Are people confusing them with Rebel Heart? That was a clusterf*ck!
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Old 11-11-2015, 12:33   #153
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Re: Does it really matter which damn sailboat you pick to go down the west coast?

A little rant here, but that is normal for the forum (at times) but not so normal for me. But this is one of my pet peeves. I used to be a skier in Colorado and got reasonably proficient, even though I really couldn't afford the lifestyle too much. But there were always self-professed, and self-promoting, "ski bums" whose story was "I did it on only $xx dollars/month and anyone who really wants to can too." Then you find out they are trust-funder babies. Underneath their well-worn ski outfits they carried mommie & daddie's credit cards. And they have the latest ski kit "since they need that to ski as well as they do". And they always have a safety net of large funds when they decide to go get a sailboat and be a "sailing bum". Sorry, but I put the Bumfuzzies in that category.

Of course, there have always been and always will be those who make their own way and actually do what they profess to do. If you notice Bumfuzzie dad was a commodity broker (making a big assumption that he made a boatload of money) who decided he could take his wife and family off on wild adventures and do it on far less money than most of us could eat on let alone have a sailboat at the same time. And they are not shy about crowing about how they did it and you can too if only you try hard enough. And by the way, they are the vanguard of the "live off the land" types that will be needed when we run out of oil and gas.

Well, I don't know many true "poor" people living on a few dollars a day who can plunk down $189,000 to refit a small boat. And how can you not factor that in on how much it really cost them to sail? Amazing. We had spent five years refitting a very capable cruiser before we left and we still had to spend thousands of dollars for repairs along the way. In foreign countries. And I am a very capable tech on boats and do everything except engine rebuilds and new rigging (which we needed after breaking a shroud off of Tonga - in a gale). And every other cruising couple that I know has had similar experiences. But enough with that rant.

If you are serious and want to go: You can save yourself some serious cash by not putting on complicated and expensive radar/chartplotters but you need good a good depth sounder, VHF radio, and at least a windvane pilot if not a electric autopilot. And you need to keep the water on the outside of the boat and the crew inside. And you need a workable dink - outboard is nice but oars are OK for some. Some basic spares - diesel filters, raw water impellers. Tools. Emergency and first aid gear. Sails ad rigging in good condition. Be able to carry sufficient water and fuel. Some means to cook your meals and store your food. I have never met a cruiser without refrigeration of some sort but I'll grant you can get away without it. Most people can't or don't want to. You absolutely have to have charts of some sort. A good battery system and means of keeping it charged. Water pumps - bilge, fresh water. Crew protection - sun, cold, and seas.

Believe me, it adds up. Just the little necessities add up very quickly. And for some reason it never ends. Breakage, spoilage, losing items, things that you thought were frivolous and now consider mandatory after you start out.

One sea worthy small boat I would seriously consider is the Albin Vega 27. They have gone around the world and are a relatively safe little boat. Very capable and a quick check shows they are widely available for under $10k. But you get what you pay for (mostly). I would recommend you get something that is as well equipped with the serious stuff right off the bat, or, have a kitty with several thousand in it to do the bare boned necessities in short order.

Regarding "arm chair sailing": My wife and I have 15,000nm on our previous boat. That boat had over 40,000nm before us, and the current owners have taken her from New Zealand to England so far. I spent five years refitting her - hundreds and hundreds of hours of my own time. Thousands of dollars in upgrades and replacements. We went down the coast from WA state to Mexico after our shakedown cruise of two months around Vancouver Island and hundreds of shorter trips in the PNW. Had 18 months in Mexico before going across the Pacific to New Zealand in one season and to Fiji, Vanuatu, New Caledonia and back to NZ the next. Liveaboards for four years in foreign countries. I was a marine tech for 10 years - electrical, electronics, and general boat systems. Certified ABYC marine electrical tech for 10 years. Etc. Etc.

I believe I am not nearly as qualified as many folks on this forum but that I am qualified enough to provide some valid suggestions (with an occasional rant). I also know there are usually more than one way to skin a cat and there are value disagreements about many things on this forum. And anyone who has actually gone out there and done that will have stories about the things that went right, the things that went wrong, and the lucky times when they could have died, lost the boat, hurt themselves, etc. And about the times they actually did hurt themselves with lifelong recurring problems.

And there actually are some "armchair" sailors on this forum, but it is a handy thing to bash someone you don't know with that description. A bit like politicians bashing the media when they say something they don't want to hear. Easier to kill the reporter than to kill the facts. I have also seen some completely asinine and bone-headed "advice" given out here. The catamaran haters will always hate and have never seen a seaworthy catamaran (I don't have one and never have but I know there are some very capable catamarans out and about.). But we can agree to disagree. And go sailing with the boat we have, not the boat we wish we had. And you learn your lessons as you go since none of us were born sailors. Even a toddler raised on boats learns as he/she goes.

I was a Boy Scout so my motto is "Be Prepared" and it has helped me to this day to avoid many of the discouraging "accidents" that many wannabees have. I err on the caution side especially if I am responsible for a crew - my wife, my friends, even a stranger on board. There are some things that I prepare for more than others. And I will tell others what I think if they seem to be more unprepared than I, humbly, think they should be. And I am glad that others do that too. Then I can choose what I want to do. But I am not about to sail on the North Pacific in a small (<70') boat in the winter time and anyone who takes their husband or wife out there that time of year without being prepared in a suitable boat is endangering themselves and their crew. The same is equally true for going down the Pacific coast in the summertime. The sea still needs the appropriate respect. May be wrong on this, but most of the people who say "just do it on any boat" I suspect sail solo, even if they are married. More power to them.

Sorry - I put two rants around a meager set of suggestions.
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Old 11-11-2015, 12:54   #154
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Re: Does it really matter which damn sailboat you pick to go down the west coast?

exMaggieDrum, I hope that wasn't because of my comment about Bumfuzzle. By no means was I suggesting, by invoking the name of Bumfuzzle, that the OP do anything foolhardy, and I would never advise them of such. I only made the comment because, regardless of how they began their adventure (inexperienced, unprepared, wrong boat, whatever) the Bumfuzzles are still out there, going from one adventure to the next, and having one heck of a time long after many people would have thrown in the towel. They get knocked down, things fall apart (the water pump in their camper just gave up the ghost in Mexico this week....) they learn along the way, they fix the broken stuff, and they travel on, the same as anyone else, and much more than most.

I do realize that the Bumfuzzles seem to have one thing that the OP doesn't, and that is money, apparently sufficient to buy sailboats, campers, and Porches, and support a family of four for years on end. It's great work if you can get it. So their situation is not even remotely like the OP's except in respect to being inexperienced (which, by the way, the majority of people seem to continue to ignore the fact that the OP has contacted an experienced instructor, JackDale, and is making plans to deal with their learning curve before venturing past their home waters.....everyone spoke, they listened).

But it's just my take that the Bumfuzzles are doing some pretty cool stuff, exposing their kids to a life and an education that they would never get in a house in the 'burbs and a fancy private school. I say good on them. Criticize the stuff they did wrong, but we can recognize the stuff they did and are doing right too, because I'll just bet that from time to time there's a little Bumfuzzle in all of us. And I'll also bet that there are lots of people, probably even some on this board, that wish they could be a little more like the Bumfuzzles, just throw caution to the wind (pun intended), and go out there and hit the deck running, live the dream come what may.
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Old 11-11-2015, 13:08   #155
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Re: Does it really matter which damn sailboat you pick to go down the west coast?

Just finished a decent book on crazy sailing today named Ice Bird by David Lewis who tried to circumnavigate Antarctica from Australia, then return home in a 32 ft steel hulled sailboat he had bought just weeks before departure. He actually made it 2/3 of the way around.
Good for him, but oh how he suffered for doin' the trip po boy. Not saying that you have to pay up, go new... just make sure you do everything you can to establish the seaworthiness of vessel.. before you leave.
Conclusion: Nothing about sailing today or tomorrow in the sea should be considered as a dress rehearsal.
Cheers and good luck to you, Pappy
p.s- don't leave in anything under 34 ft unless it's rock solid w a heavy keel and stout engine.
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Old 11-11-2015, 13:14   #156
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Re: Does it really matter which damn sailboat you pick to go down the west coast?

[QUOTE=ruby tuesday;1959726]

by all means get a 10k boat but make sure that you've got life insurance and the coastguard on speed dial if you're gunna do things without getting coaching first. my advice go and get qualified first before you go.
[QUOTE]

Maybe you haven't been 10k boat shopping in a while.

I'll save the rant but they can be had. Mine's a 2k boat and it could easily go offshore for a few months before refurb WITH AN EXPERIENCED SAILOR
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Old 11-11-2015, 13:49   #157
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Re: Does it really matter which damn sailboat you pick to go down the west coast?

Ah Schooner, you cut me to the quick! Let me adjust my armchair for a moment. The only time I was out on the sea between Cape Flattery and the Farallons was salmon fishing trip out of Crescent City when I was 6 or so. I remember being wet, cold and sea-sick. So that may disqualify me from the get-go. But after many family camping trips along the entire west coast including SE Alaska, (my dad was travel editor for Sunset magazine in the 60s,) I got my impressions (cold, wet and uncomfortable) and inspiration to sail (a little sailboat anchored in a tidal estuary channel.) Indeed it was my father's fanciful, half-serious, dream of rowing a dory down the entire west coast that got me thinking more about sailing rather than rowing! The authority I assume in commenting comes from learning to sail on the bay (cold, wet, uncomfortable and more fun than should be legal) and then cruising my own boat around So Cal + islands, but more specifically a trip when I was 20 with a 16 year old friend from SF to Channel Islands in a Signet 20. We had a great time, surfing pretty much the whole way. Then he and I sailed our own boats together around the Channel Islands. He brought his mom along and so did I! 2 weeks around the islands. Then he sailed that boat back to SF by himself! (THAT is the hard part.) I am not sure one has to have sailed many times up and down the Oregon/Wash. coast to have an opinion. You can just look out and see it is a long way, not many good places to pull into if you need to and it can be wet, cold, breezy usually, sometimes dead calm and foggy and sometimes the gales just pop up, often large swells, current and wind are sometimes at odds making confused seas and local fishermen take it all in stride. (BTW, talk to them! They have a lot of good tips!) Gloom and doom? Once prepared, I look forward to the trip, especially the long way, north and pulling into every cove and harbor along the way that my 4 foot of draft will allow. Some of the most beautiful coastline anywhere lies between Point Conception and the Aleutians. But it always boils down to probabilities (thanks quantum physics)... and I think most folks with an experienced opinion are reflecting on exactly that: probabilities. Given a cold water coast, and high probability of fog and/or gales, or rain means a higher probability of problems. 40 feet of water line, lower probability. No experience, higher probability. Unknown $10,000 boat... well, you get the idea. IF you are ready for problems, then, no problem! And it is absolutely possible to have a wonderful trip, even catching many warm sunny days, probably in August/September. Me, I'd be prepared to spend a week and a half or so being wet, cold and uncomfortable... but I kind of like that! But still, the question still hangs in the air... can an armchair sailor make a meaningful contribution to the conversation or shall we keel-haul the impostors? (Could you check my zincs while you are down there?)
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Old 11-11-2015, 16:00   #158
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Re: Does it really matter which damn sailboat you pick to go down the west coast?

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Ah Schooner, you cut me to the quick! Let me adjust my armchair for a moment....

.....
But still, the question still hangs in the air... can an armchair sailor make a meaningful contribution to the conversation or shall we keel-haul the impostors?
Thanks for the needed humor, Don. I do think ACS's (Arm Chair Sailors) make many great contributions all the time. I just don't like it when group-think emerges and people, not in the OP's situation, jump onto the bandwagon of negatively picking on the OP without ever having seen or experienced the proposed cruising grounds, type of boat (e.g. the Cat-hate), or equipment of discussion. Seems to happen quite a bit in forums as you likely know.

If an ACS comes along waxing on about the doom and gloom--or all sunshine and glib about how awesome a particular thing is, the fair disclosure thing for ACS to do is to state where he gets his opinion from (books, lectures at the boat shows, particular friends or experts he respects?) or if it's not ACS-chat, relate that he speaks from direct experience (40 years ago or last week) since that context is all relevant to the conversation to be had.

The contribution is had, IMO, when a forum member (ACS or not), manages to utter something that can be recognized by the average person as helpful rather than rhetorical. Much of what we've seen in this thread digresses away from helpful for the OP and more akin to whining about the flaws of the people with the audacity to want to go cruising.

PS yup--I love talking to the fishermen about an area. Much to hear about good hidy-holes and local conditions when chatting on the radio with the local fishermen or when in harbor with them.
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Old 11-11-2015, 16:11   #159
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Re: Does it really matter which damn sailboat you pick to go down the west coast?

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exMaggieDrum, I hope that wasn't because of my comment about Bumfuzzle. By no means was I suggesting, by invoking the name of Bumfuzzle, that the OP do anything foolhardy, and I would never advise them of such. I only made the comment because, regardless of how they began their adventure (inexperienced, unprepared, wrong boat, whatever) the Bumfuzzles are still out there, going from one adventure to the next, and having one heck of a time long after many people would have thrown in the towel. They get knocked down, things fall apart (the water pump in their camper just gave up the ghost in Mexico this week....) they learn along the way, they fix the broken stuff, and they travel on, the same as anyone else, and much more than most.

I do realize that the Bumfuzzles seem to have one thing that the OP doesn't, and that is money, apparently sufficient to buy sailboats, campers, and Porches, and support a family of four for years on end. It's great work if you can get it. So their situation is not even remotely like the OP's except in respect to being inexperienced (which, by the way, the majority of people seem to continue to ignore the fact that the OP has contacted an experienced instructor, JackDale, and is making plans to deal with their learning curve before venturing past their home waters.....everyone spoke, they listened).

But it's just my take that the Bumfuzzles are doing some pretty cool stuff, exposing their kids to a life and an education that they would never get in a house in the 'burbs and a fancy private school. I say good on them. Criticize the stuff they did wrong, but we can recognize the stuff they did and are doing right too, because I'll just bet that from time to time there's a little Bumfuzzle in all of us. And I'll also bet that there are lots of people, probably even some on this board, that wish they could be a little more like the Bumfuzzles, just throw caution to the wind (pun intended), and go out there and hit the deck running, live the dream come what may.
In no way was I trying to give or imply any problem with what you said. I admire the Bumfuzzles for the adventures they have had. They seem real and genuine and as worthy as any other. I was just ranting about some of the folks who set out to impress people, are self-promoting, and often leave out some meaningful stuff about the safety nets they have that most of us do not have. Skin in the game for them is not the same as skin in the game for many - like me. I am not jealous of them either as I am proud of what meager adventures we pulled off and don't feel bad if someone else manages to do things I can only dream about.

And, I may be completely off by implying that perhaps they have a substantial fortune lurking in the background. I know I would make different decisions whether I could afford to lose my boat or not. For some people it is just a "whoops - my bad". They may even get mad about the money that just sunk off the reef, but it's different. I have known several people in real life who have done this. But, hey, does that even matter? Just a pet peeve of mine.
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Old 11-11-2015, 16:55   #160
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Re: Does it really matter which damn sailboat you pick to go down the west coast?

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...I just don't like it when group-think emerges and people, not in the OP's situation, jump onto the bandwagon of negatively picking on the OP without ever having seen or experienced the proposed cruising grounds, type of boat (e.g. the Cat-hate), or equipment of discussion...

The contribution is had, IMO, when a forum member (ACS or not), manages to utter something that can be recognized by the average person as helpful rather than rhetorical. Much of what we've seen in this thread digresses away from helpful for the OP and more akin to whining about the flaws of the people with the audacity to want to go cruising...
If we could always have everything just the way we like, wouldn't we soon become bored? And wouldn't we miss out on a lot of good ideas that sprang from the uninitiated?

We are fortunate to have a such a wide cross section of boat lovers, be they old and sea-worn or new and clueless. And we are especially fortunate to have an open forum where we can all freely express our ideas without censure.
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Old 11-11-2015, 17:40   #161
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Re: Does it really matter which damn sailboat you pick to go down the west coast?

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If we could always have everything just the way we like, wouldn't we soon become bored? And wouldn't we miss out on a lot of good ideas that sprang from the uninitiated?

We are fortunate to have a such a wide cross section of boat lovers, be they old and sea-worn or new and clueless. And we are especially fortunate to have an open forum where we can all freely express our ideas without censure.
Hey, who you callin' old and sea-worn? Oh wait, maybe I'm clueless? Ah well, I'll just settle back in my armchair here and have another beer.
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Old 11-11-2015, 18:55   #162
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Re: Does it really matter which damn sailboat you pick to go down the west coast?

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If we could always have everything just the way we like, wouldn't we soon become bored? And wouldn't we miss out on a lot of good ideas that sprang from the uninitiated?

We are fortunate to have a such a wide cross section of boat lovers, be they old and sea-worn or new and clueless. And we are especially fortunate to have an open forum where we can all freely express our ideas without censure.
Hmmm, did you forgot old and clueless

Ooops, that wasn't directed to you Don, as I'm just reading your post now.
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Old 11-11-2015, 20:04   #163
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Re: Does it really matter which damn sailboat you pick to go down the west coast?

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Because their boat was a POS that fell apart (and they had to pay big bucks to fix), or because they went around the world?
Not just big bucks to fix, but much more, constant torture, and risk to life.

A good lesson, by the way, that not "any damn boat" is suitable for offshore cruising.

Their blog would make great reading for the OP; anyone have the link?

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Old 11-11-2015, 20:21   #164
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Re: Does it really matter which damn sailboat you pick to go down the west coast?

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Not just big bucks to fix, but much more, constant torture, and risk to life.

A good lesson, by the way, that not "any damn boat" is suitable for offshore cruising.

Their blog would make great reading for the OP; anyone have the link?

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Try Bumfuzzle | Live Small, Venture Wide

For a summary of their various trips, start here instead:

http://www.bumfuzzle.com/adventure/

They also have a Facebook page.

As far as funds are concerned, Patrick did very well in the pits at the Chicago Exchange, quit at 27 or 28, and funds their adventures partially from what he accumulated there, partially by day trading still, and partially by being very, very frugal.
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Old 11-11-2015, 20:32   #165
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Re: Does it really matter which damn sailboat you pick to go down the west coast?

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Hmmm, did you forgot old and clueless

Ooops, that wasn't directed to you Don, as I'm just reading your post now.
That's ok, probably more accurate anyhow.
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