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Old 20-08-2010, 20:24   #91
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Originally Posted by Thorin View Post
So what I got out of this thread was, sail sail sail sail sail and then sail some more. And when you have the skill to take a canoe sound the world go out and get the best boat you can afford for the type of sailing you are going to want to do and buy the safety equipment you are going to need to sail the roughest oceans your going to go into. I guess do I need a blue water boat is rhetorical.
So what I got out of this thread was, sail sail sail sail sail and then sail some more in the boat you got. And one day, when you look over your shoulder you do a double take and then a quick neck snap forward again, then you sheepishly smile and feel all warm inside confirming your disbelief by checking your bread crumb trail on your trusty GPS...as it dawns on you... that you have already sail RTW amassing tons of skill along the way...Who would have thought....

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Old 27-08-2010, 05:30   #92
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And my point is over-engineered boats are absolutely not needed, far too expensive, far more difficult to maintain, far more difficult to resell, and can be far more dangerous because instead of sailing conservatively or avoiding bad weather it's easy to say "Oh, I'm in a Swan, it'll handle it"

Its not the boat, its the user behind the wheel. And a concerned user is far better than a financially stressed complacent sailor.


Whatever boat you decide on make sure its your own decision not someone saying you should buy an antiquated poorly designed lump of peeling varnish just because some duffer says it has a long keel so therefore better than any modern designed, modern produced, easily maintained boat that costs half and doesnt break down.

Now if that damn thread ignore feature would operate this thread would disappear from my screen!


I don't necessarily disagree (though I don't agree either ), Mark. The problem is that there are definite limits to your argument. I have been in fiberglass boats (no names, but a few popular brands - and no, not Beneteaus) that literally oil-can when hit by a moderate cross swell. No real problem in the Chessie, but I wouldn't take that boat offshore. No way.

I like the way Mark thinks on most things and I think he's obviously got the right boat for him and what he's doing, but I think there's a lot to be said for "over-engineered" boats too.

Given a choice, I think we will all sail conservatively; it's the part about not being given a choice (and I've been there) that concerns me.
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Old 27-08-2010, 16:26   #93
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check out Catalina

I may be in a similar situation. I am not so sure I still have rtw aspirations given the current world situation, especially Mex. I have been shopping the internet sites and have put in some low offers that weren't accepted, one still pending. Comparing Hunter with Catalina, I prefer Catalina. Pretty much have decided to get a used 36, the offer I have pending now. Seems that what I hear and read is that everywhere you go, you will find a Catalina 36 sharing your anchorage. The only boat I would round the Horn on is the QE2 anyway. Catalina seems to hold value better than Hunter. So if you buy a Catalina, learn more by sailing it and find a "blue water" boat is an upgrade you feel is necessary, you can recoup a better portion of your investment easier, if not make a little bit with a little tlc and elbow grease. Get out there and sail. Buy a used boat needing tlc, not a rebuild. A Hunter if that is your taste. Invest a small amount of money in upgrades, a good deal of time in tlc, do it as you sail and learn. The economy is a big question, but if your boat holds it's value and you can get nearly your initial investment back, you will have earned invaluable lessons to take with you to a more expensive "blue water" cruiser.
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Old 31-08-2010, 18:57   #94
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yes the question could be, do I really want a blue water boat , if I can store enough water in the trusty ocean going canoe ?, it would be a lot cheaper.
( hmmm where is the tongue in cheek icon? )
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Old 14-09-2010, 11:45   #95
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A viking named Leif Eriksson is supposed to have "discovered" North America a couple of hundred years later. Is a viking ship a blue water boat?

/Hampus


The Viking Ship Museum in Denmark usually gets one letter a month inquiring about Viking ship design, and how one could go about building their own Viking ship so they can sail across the Atlantic. They have a form letter reply for this that starts "This letter may save your life..."
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Old 14-09-2010, 15:04   #96
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but if your boat holds it's value and you can get nearly your initial investment back,
never go into boats with that view.
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Old 14-09-2010, 15:23   #97
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I like the way Mark thinks on most things and I think he's obviously got the right boat for him and what he's doing, but I think there's a lot to be said for "over-engineered" boats too.
This argument is getting like the gun threads,

Firstly I love the comments like " designed to be a coastal cruiser". The worst worst weather you can met in my opion is off the coast of northern europe ( in my experience). Ive got hammered of Biscay, Dover straits and in parts of the Med ( near ibiza).. I met a round the world cruiser in a big Tayana, an American, He said the worst weather ( nearly brought his mast down), was in the med in summer near Menorca. This is "the coastal" areas you talk about, this is Benteaus back garden.

Any decent production boat can RTW, and yes these modern types can take the fuel and or water ( watermakers etc) for extended crossing, just look at the ARC, thats 20 days.

Really this argument, simply doesnt withstand the logic of looking around you. u may have a Tayana, or whatever, They has their more then fair share of problems too.

As to "beamy" interiors, just back from a boat show saw the new Bavaria 45 , fantastic boat, well designed, good handhold below, etc. could this boat RTW, of course.

Sailing moves on, technology moves on , boat design moves on, get over it.

As to CE certfication. Ce certification is a rigorous process, especially for Class A or B, its primarily designed to ensure boats meet a minimum standard. But its better then nothing and way better then the ABYC stuff, which is voluntary.

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Old 14-09-2010, 16:25   #98
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never go into boats with that view.
I was about to say that this is great advice, but having gone back to the full post from which the quote you are responding to was lifted, I have to say you took the quote out of context. I agree with the full post, which basically made the point that there is validity to buying an older boat in need of TLC but not a rebuild.
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Old 14-09-2010, 16:50   #99
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Firstly I love the comments like " designed to be a coastal cruiser". The worst worst weather you can met in my opion is off the coast of northern europe ( in my experience). ...
My partial definition of coastal cruiser is one kept close enough to a safe port to avoid/escape hard weather.
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Old 14-09-2010, 21:36   #100
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I don't see why people think a good, solid blue water boat has to be expensive (unless you by a brand spanking new production boat and pay someone the extra money to add all the extras for you). My boat is a nice solid ocean cruiser with an over built composite (Fiberglas and strip plank) hull. After rebuilding the interior for extended cruising for two, adding radar, wind generator, self steering vane, solar panels, upgrading the VHF (as well as all electrical on the boat), adding SSB, tweaks on the rig, etc.....my final cost for the boat is around $25,000.
Yes my boat was an "older boat" but very well kept up, I didn't have to do anything to the boat to get it to the point where what I did was just stuff I wanted to (no repairs necessary).
If you have a sound hull anything else can be repaired, replaced, upgraded, improved on or done with out.
If you have more time/patience than money it can be done relatively inexpensively, if you have more money than time then someone will sell you an expensive boat....but if you don't have the time, what are you going to do with a blue water boat anyway
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Old 14-09-2010, 22:01   #101
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I don't see why people think a good, solid blue water boat has to be expensive (unless you by a brand spanking new production boat and pay someone the extra money to add all the extras for you). My boat is a nice solid ocean cruiser with an over built composite (Fiberglas and strip plank) hull. After rebuilding the interior for extended cruising for two, adding radar, wind generator, self steering vane, solar panels, upgrading the VHF (as well as all electrical on the boat), adding SSB, tweaks on the rig, etc.....my final cost for the boat is around $25,000.
If everyone needed the same boat there would only be one boat design.

Variety is the spice of life and every single (and coupled) person needs a different boat.

Your boat is absolutely awesome - for you.

But if I have a wife and 4 kids, your boat won't work for me.

I don't think anyone is saying that you "must" spend $150,000 or you don't have a bluewater boat.

Also there is absolutely no reliable definition for "bluewater boat."

That's why this thread or many of its cousins will start and run forever on this forum and all the other sailing fora.
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Old 14-09-2010, 23:42   #102
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as far as what determines an off shore capable boat there is actually as set of design ratios, some of which accurately determine the safety of a vessel at sea.
Sail Calculator Pro v3.53 - 2000+ boats
Ratio Formulas
What determines a "blue water boat" design is two things, it's safety at sea and it ability carry the additional load necessary for long passages, what makes that design blue water capable is the addition of equipment and modifications for such a passage.
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Old 15-09-2010, 00:18   #103
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as far as what determines an off shore capable boat there is actually as set of design ratios, some of which accurately determine the safety of a vessel at sea.
Sail Calculator Pro v3.53 - 2000+ boats
Ratio Formulas
What determines a "blue water boat" design is two things, it's safety at sea and it ability carry the additional load necessary for long passages, what makes that design blue water capable is the addition of equipment and modifications for such a passage.
Don't disagree that there a formula and ratios and that you have to be able to carry your stuff.

But there still is no reliable definition.

You kinda support that by giving us three terms to chew on

"Blue Water Capable"
"Blue Water Boat"
"Off-shore Capable"

This is sorta, "I don't know what it is, I can't tell you what it is, but I know it when I see it."

Not trying to spark a debate. It's just that I have been reading "Bluewater" threads for three years and this is my observation.

I think better terms could be "traditional" and "modern"

Traditional may be characterized by full keels with integrated rudder, heavy displacement ratio, stout rigs, "more" complex sail plans - schooner, ketch, yawl, gaff-rigged, multiple forestays.

Modern may be characterized by fin keels, bulb keels, spade rudder, "lighter" displacement ratio, "lighter" rigs, sloop or cutter rigged, less complex sail plans with furlers.

Both types of boats circumnavigate but IMO both still defy definition because someone will come along and say their 21 footer circumnavigated.

Buying the boat can be about purpose. And purpose is completely personal.

I can't afford multiple boats. I probably won't have 4-6 crew. I will ultimately cruise the region. I have no desire to sail the high latitudes. I would consider a traditional boat if I was more about "sailing" long distances than sailing "destinations."

Destination sailing for me is hanging around somewhere for a few months. Maybe play in some local regattas. Then move on to somewhere else and stay a while. I have a good friend with a "very" traditional boat. He lives on it. He plans his sails 3 months in advance and it takes him 2 weeks to prep the boat.

If I can't get underway in a day, I have the wrong boat so in general a traditional boat is not for me.
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Old 15-09-2010, 01:29   #104
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As to "beamy" interiors, just back from a boat
Which one? I was at the Southampton boat show yesterday and I took three or four piccies which I'll post up later.
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Old 15-09-2010, 02:18   #105
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The question breaks down to " do I need a boat designed for blue water sailing if I want to go blue water sailing?" The answer is no, but you will be alot safer and more comfortable if you do. The right tool for the right job.
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