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Old 19-08-2013, 15:36   #16
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Re: Discussion. Help me understand more in depth...clr! looks can be deceiving

Hear speaks the voice of INexperience. I haven't sailed either of the boats, although I've sailed plenty similar to the Cal. But bear with me anyway

Yes, essentially the CLR of the Nor'Sea will be further aft than that of the Cal. When underway, the effect of a CLR further aft relative to the centre of effort of the sails will produce a force coupling, and reduce the tendency for weather helm. This doesn't mean the Nor'Sea will have less weather helm than the Cal in any given conditions, as the hull/rig may have more of a tendency for weather helm anyway. But essentially yes - moving the CLR further aft without changing any other conditions will make the bow 'blow off', in fact this is a technique used in dinghies to get out of irons, and is achieved by raising the centreboard. As I say, no reflection on the relative performance of these boats.

Pointing ability is different discussion to helm balance IMHO, although is related to keel design.

Principles of Yacht Design, 3rd Edition: Lars Larsson, Rolf E. Eliasson: 9780071487696: Amazon.com: Books

Treat yourself. The book will be of far more value than an internet forum. I find yacht design a fascinating subject.
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Old 19-08-2013, 15:40   #17
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Re: Discussion. Help me understand more in depth...clr! looks can be deceiving

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the bow should't blow off on the full keel. The CLR is designed to balance the CE (center of effort) A quick glance at the rigs would indicate the CE on the full keel is further aft, hence the CLR is further aft (roachy main with boom to the transom) also the draft is less on the full keel. No reason it wouldn't point as high or as fast as the fin keel. If the CE and CLR aren't balanced you would have lee or weather helm and too far off balance would be unsailable. Adjust sails/reef to maintain balance. My guess is the full keel would track slightly better and turn slightly worse and be a b*tch to reverse.
Yeah. Backing is a b*tch! But, in windless conditions it can be done in baby steps...
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Old 19-08-2013, 15:45   #18
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Re: Discussion. Help me understand more in depth...clr! looks can be deceiving

"The first one has a 4-stroke outboard and will go faster than the second one, that has a diesel."

Maybe, but what if the second boat has a TURBO DIESEL!

Ha!
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Old 19-08-2013, 15:54   #19
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Re: Discussion. Help me understand more in depth...clr! looks can be deceiving

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As a general rule, the greater the keel's displacement the more stable the boat is and the slower as well.

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YOU ARE WRONG, blanket statements like that show you are definately on the wrong forum.......
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Old 19-08-2013, 15:55   #20
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Re: Discussion. Help me understand more in depth...clr! looks can be deceiving

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Pretty presumptive statement considering only two boats are under consideration. Don't you think it depends upon the boat design, weight distribution and sail plan? Some boats with 'foil fin keels' will sail like a pig...
Of course it depends on ...... It even depends on how you measure it. Sheet in really tight can make the bow point closer to the wind -- while the keel slips sideways and makes the true course worse.
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Old 19-08-2013, 15:58   #21
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Re: Discussion. Help me understand more in depth...clr! looks can be deceiving

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YOU ARE WRONG, blanket statements like that show you are definately on the wrong forum.......
Uh, wait a minute. I let him off the hook because he said "As a general rule..." which is not a blanket statement. Can't you find a little bit of compassion in your soul?
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Old 19-08-2013, 16:03   #22
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Re: Discussion. Help me understand more in depth...clr! looks can be deceiving

Hiya Wrong! I really enjoy folks who just throw an opinion at what I stated, without backing up their statement. It is really mighty fun to be here, Hiawatha!

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Old 19-08-2013, 16:04   #23
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Re: Discussion. Help me understand more in depth...clr! looks can be deceiving

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Of course it depends on ...... It even depends on how you measure it. Sheet in really tight can make the bow point closer to the wind -- while the keel slips sideways and makes the true course worse.
Truth is, regardless of keel configuration both designs are going to get where they want to go faster by falling off. Ability to point is good if you need to clear a point and can accept the slower speed, but if room is available probably falling off and tacking a couple of times will be the preferred strategy.
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Old 19-08-2013, 16:07   #24
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Re: Discussion. Help me understand more in depth...clr! looks can be deceiving

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Hiya Wrong! I really enjoy folks who just throw an opinion at what I stated, without backing up their statement. It is really mighty fun to be here, Hiawatha!

Mauritz
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Hey! You talking to me? Or the other dude with no compassion? No sense of good will or live and let live?

Man, I stuck up for you!

Thanks a heap!
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Old 19-08-2013, 16:15   #25
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Re: Discussion. Help me understand more in depth...clr! looks can be deceiving

Hiya Wrong! You stuck up for me, indeed! Thank you! Please accept a gallon of coconut ice cream, with my compliments! (Hand-made ice cream...no smart alec remarks...even if it has some husk in the mix!)

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Old 19-08-2013, 16:17   #26
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Re: Discussion. Help me understand more in depth...clr! looks can be deceiving

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Hiya Wrong! You stuck up for me, indeed! Thank you! Please accept a gallon of coconut ice cream, with my compliments! (Hand-made ice cream...no smart alec remarks...even if it has some husk in the mix!)

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Hey, thanks! I like husk in my ice cream with broken glass!
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Old 19-08-2013, 18:02   #27
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Re: Discussion. Help me understand more in depth...clr! looks can be deceiving

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Truth is, regardless of keel configuration both designs are going to get where they want to go faster by falling off. Ability to point is good if you need to clear a point and can accept the slower speed, but if room is available probably falling off and tacking a couple of times will be the preferred strategy.
Right, but on a boat like my old J, I could crack off 5 degs, pickup speed, get a comortable ride and still be pointing higher than a close hauled full keel boat. Different strokes for different folks.
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Old 19-08-2013, 19:04   #28
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Re: Discussion. Help me understand more in depth...clr! looks can be deceiving

Actually the OP brought up CLR. But cool link!
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Old 20-08-2013, 07:07   #29
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Re: Discussion. Help me understand more in depth...clr! looks can be deceiving

Thanks all for the input
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Old 20-08-2013, 07:37   #30
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Re: Discussion. Help me understand more in depth...clr! looks can be deceiving

I am yet to sail a full keel boat that will point and sail upwind anything close to a fine keel boat (ceteris paribus). Frankly, I do not care much about the extra 10 or 15 degrees as I generally avoid beating.

BUT flat water round marks is one thing, open water rough conditions is another.

If you want to know what is efficient and points, look at where these characteristics are rewarded: the race course. And what do you see. Full keels?

If you want to know what is comfortable, reliable and safe, look at the cruising crowd. And what do you see. Many long keels.

b.
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