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Old 16-03-2016, 08:09   #61
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Re: Discounting a boat that needs a new Motor, Mast or Deck

That Valiant is a 40 years old grp boat in basic condition. Does not seem underpriced to me. Maybe just priced to sell.

If she is sound, I could buy something like this in condition like this. Not sight unseen off course.

b.
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Old 16-03-2016, 08:38   #62
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Re: Discounting a boat that needs a new Motor, Mast or Deck

I've done this three times. Buying a fixer-upper can be a great way to get a great boat. I've also seen it be a one-way trip to a busted dream, plenty of times.

First, I think you're thinking about spending too much money. I bought my current boat, a great 40-footer about which a broker recently told me, "Boy, you could sail that boat anywhere in the world," for $23,000. Engine in great shape, mast and rigging in great shape, deck solid as a rock everywhere. It had peeling paint, and it had sat neglected in a marina for a couple of years. The boat sold three years earlier for $59,000. You can be the guy who buys it cheap and sells high. Or you can be the guy who buys it high and sells cheap. Either way is fairly easy to accomplish.

Paint is cheap (if you do it yourself). Cleanup is cheap, minor repairs are cheap, etc., if you do them yourself. Fixing rotten decks is actually cheap (and not too hard) if you do it yourself. These things scare buyers away. Sooner or later, an owner who wants to sell a boat that needs those things will face reality and sell it for a song.

Conversely, if you just park a great boat in a marina for 2-3 years, don't take care of it, or are distracted by work or illness, you can quickly convert it into one of these boats no one wants.

Also... if you're a perfectionist, and you like hiring out work, you can VERY quickly spend far more on a project than the boat is worth. We just watched a guy spend $5,000 buying a project boat with great potential, probably pour another $30,000 into it, then give up before the boat was completed. He turned $35,000 into a boat worth nothing. I know another guy who bought a boat that needed an engine and teak deck replacement, spent $100,000 on it, created a beautiful boat, and sold it for $13,000. These are true stories. They are not unusual.

Here's our experience: first boat- paid $2000. Spent a lot of time and very little money fixing it up. Sold it for $7500. Next boat- paid $7500. Again, a lot of elbow grease and little money. Sold for $17,500. Next boat- paid $23,000. Trying to stay with the program. Great boat so far. Have cruised 15,000+ miles in these boats. I know at least four other boat owners very well who have done the same program and now have fabulous, big boats.

It can be done. Sometimes it turns out very well. Sometimes it doesn't. Good luck.
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Old 16-03-2016, 10:56   #63
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Re: Discounting a boat that needs a new Motor, Mast or Deck

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Originally Posted by barnakiel View Post
That Valiant is a 40 years old grp boat in basic condition. Does not seem underpriced to me. Maybe just priced to sell.

If she is sound, I could buy something like this in condition like this. Not sight unseen off course.

b.

I love the look of the Valiants, but it seems they are very prone to blisters between 1976 and 1981. Not your average blisters, but big nasty ones that may even compromise hull integrity and come back again and again even peeling and fixing them. Sounds like a huge pain and a money drain. I haven't seen one built after the Uniflite blister years for anywhere near that cheap. Look at this one, for example.

Your experiences are encouraging, Tia Bu. I still think it generally makes sense to look for boats on the top end of the spectrum for any given model when it comes to condition (with the possible exception of an older motor or mast, as I've been wondering aloud) and models at the top end of the spectrum when it comes to a reputation for build quality considering their advanced age.

My favorites right now are the Tayana 37, Baba 35, Southern Cross 39, Alajuela 38, Passport 40, Valiant 40, Valiant Esprit 37, Corbin 39, and Rafiki 37. The Corbin is sorta the odd one out on my list with a flush deck and pilothouse but I want to see one up close before I rule it out. The Passport, Valiant and Alajuela might be be harder to find in my price range.

At the risk of repeating myself, it is one thing to see boats online from all parts of the country and it's another to find them in my area. I'm located in New York City, and if I search only locations within a day's drive round trip the selection gets much much smaller. But I'm being very patient!
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Old 16-03-2016, 11:17   #64
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Re: Discounting a boat that needs a new Motor, Mast or Deck

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Just a note on the Atticus YouTube videos. My take is that they intentionally bought a project boat wanting that specific model. They have rebuilt every system and considering the level of work they did two years was not bad I think. They have a lot of skills - not for the average boat owner for sure.
And when they are done they will have a 50 year old boat, worth exactly what they paid for it ($5k), despite all their labour...because its still 50 years old.

The impression I got from the first couple episodes was that they wanted to go sailing around the world...they never mentioned 2+ years of labour at a DIY marina. And sadly, when they do set out on their dream trip, finally, I think they will find that 30' is a pretty small boat. For the amount of labour they are doing...a larger boat would have given them a better return...both on their enjoyment of the boat, and financially when time to sell. For example, if they had restored an Alberg 37 instead.

Don't get me wrong, I love their videos, and I totally respect what they are doing. But for comparison, look at the MondayNever videos...they are sailing in the Caribbean in episode 2. Atticus has almost 100 videos posted...and still no sailing.
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Old 16-03-2016, 11:26   #65
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Re: Discounting a boat that needs a new Motor, Mast or Deck

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I've done this three times. Buying a fixer-upper can be a great way to get a great boat.
Hurray! I'm not alone. I've done this 8 times. I should mention though, every single time I bought the boat for ME, so I could go sailing, not to make a profit. However, once the boat was done, I saw so much capital sitting there, it was hard not to sell.

The first boat I offered 30% of asking price, and it was (grudgingly) accepted. Sold for triple what I paid. Being a man of science (mech eng), I wanted to see if the experiment was reproducible, or just a fluke. So the next boat was purchased for $1000 (asking was $12k), and the next time I really pushed the envelope, buying a 29' boat that I sailed away for $100.

I'm currently looking for my next boat.
So if you are desperate to sell, at any price...send a PM please.
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Old 16-03-2016, 11:29   #66
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Re: Discounting a boat that needs a new Motor, Mast or Deck

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New 40HP diesel and shaft installed for 15K? Sounds like someone got the "friends and family" discount
Not really. a new 60hp betamarine is $16kl CAD so a 40 hp is prob closer to $8-10K USD installing a motor doesn't in the slightest require any special skills, just a bit of patience! Including my current boat, I'll have done it 3 times now. New engines are the easiest to install too. just have to line them up and occasionally fab up new motor mounts to fit your engine beds.

If you're paying someone to do all the work... dig deep.

Rig. I'm replacing my entire rig ( except the furling for now) the entire wire package with fittings swaged on is only around $3800 CAD so prob $3k USD and that's for a Ketch, basically 2 rigs on one boat!

Rotten decks though I'd stay away from if you have to do the other work too
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Old 16-03-2016, 11:32   #67
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pirate Re: Discounting a boat that needs a new Motor, Mast or Deck

Tell him for $15K..
you'll take it off his hands..
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Old 16-03-2016, 11:42   #68
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Re: Discounting a boat that needs a new Motor, Mast or Deck

Seems like two schools of thought. 40 yr. old glass is prone the blisters. On the other hand they are build like a tank.
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Old 16-03-2016, 11:43   #69
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Re: Discounting a boat that needs a new Motor, Mast or Deck

How exactly does one go about finding the right used mast? Is it as simple as matching the diameter and length (or cutting a longer one down?) or are the dimensions more complex? Any other major factors that a good rigger or DIYer wouldn't be able to overcome?
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Old 16-03-2016, 11:48   #70
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Re: Discounting a boat that needs a new Motor, Mast or Deck

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How exactly does one go about finding the right used mast? Is it as simple as matching the diameter and length (or cutting a longer one down?) or are the dimensions more complex? Any other major factors that a good rigger or DIYer wouldn't be able to overcome?
The biggest problem with finding a used mast, is finding one with the spreader bases in the right place for you. you really don't wnat to be moving fittings around much and making more holes in the mast then is already there! lots of places on the east coast do salvage. just finding one that is right, and close to you can be a challenge!
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Old 16-03-2016, 11:50   #71
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Re: Discounting a boat that needs a new Motor, Mast or Deck

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Your experiences are encouraging, Tia Bu. I still think it generally makes sense to look for boats on the top end of the spectrum for any given model when it comes to condition (with the possible exception of an older motor or mast, as I've been wondering aloud) and models at the top end of the spectrum when it comes to a reputation for build quality considering their advanced age.

My favorites right now are the Tayana 37, Baba 35, Southern Cross 39, Alajuela 38, Passport 40, Valiant 40, Valiant Esprit 37, Corbin 39, and Rafiki 37. The Corbin is sorta the odd one out on my list with a flush deck and pilothouse but I want to see one up close before I rule it out. The Passport, Valiant and Alajuela might be be harder to find in my price range.

At the risk of repeating myself, it is one thing to see boats online from all parts of the country and it's another to find them in my area. I'm located in New York City, and if I search only locations within a day's drive round trip the selection gets much much smaller. But I'm being very patient!
1) I want to be encouraging, but based on this response, I think you would be better off looking for a smaller boat that you could afford. I think by the time you add one of the major systems you are talking about, you're going to spend more than if you had just bought a boat that didn't need that work. Go smaller, get one that doesn't need much work, and you're probably going to come out ahead.

2) The models you mention are great boats, but they're kind of the boat that everyone is thinking would make great cruising boats, so they are more expensive. There are lots and lots of models you never heard of that you will find, with a little bit of digging, make great cruising boats. Look for the best deals, then do some research. You may find someone sailed that boat you never heard of all over the world and loved it.

3) I bet nearly half the boats for sale in the U.S. are within a day's drive of NYC.
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Old 16-03-2016, 11:57   #72
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Re: Discounting a boat that needs a new Motor, Mast or Deck

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Seems like two schools of thought. 40 yr. old glass is prone the blisters. On the other hand they are build like a tank.
I don't think old glass is more prone. The Valiant's in question were built with defective fire retardant resin.
IME, a boat either has blisters, often within <10 years , or may not get them at all.
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Old 16-03-2016, 12:42   #73
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Re: Discounting a boat that needs a new Motor, Mast or Deck

b-
You're probably right about the "stark" discount, the equipment list doesn't really say a lot. Clever broker also is either unaware that "Valiant" from that time frame may raise blister questions, and doesn't mention the hull condition either.
Fortunately it is on the far coast, and I don't do transcontinental "integrity" tests on brokers.(G) But a clean Valiant at that price certainly would twist my arm. I don't mind "stark", to me it just means less obsolete stuff to deal with.
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Old 16-03-2016, 14:17   #74
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Re: Discounting a boat that needs a new Motor, Mast or Deck

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1) I want to be encouraging, but based on this response, I think you would be better off looking for a smaller boat that you could afford. I think by the time you add one of the major systems you are talking about, you're going to spend more than if you had just bought a boat that didn't need that work.
I'm a bit confused by the mixed messages, TB. At first you said that I was looking to spend more money than I needed to on a 40 footer, then you said maybe I can't afford a boat that big.

I've got 50k put away to spend on a boat this year. If I want to spend more I can wait another year or finance part of it. If I find something I like that is cheaper, that's great too. More money for cruising and upgrades, or the unexpected. I haven't forgotten the costs of dockage, insurance, winter storage, sales tax, maintenance, etc.

If you think the boats I listed are overvalued or overrated, then that is indeed useful info. At this point I'm relying heavily on the reputation of different boats, and it's true that it's a double edged sword because a popular boat may come with an overestimated price tag. Or if your point is that I should not buy a boat that needs work, then that is a direct answer to my original question about trying to save money on a boat that needs an upgrade, and also useful.

Thanks for the help, but I'm just not sure what your point is about my budget...

Regardless, things will become clearer as I start actually visiting and inspecting boats. I do appreciate all the helpful info from everybody.
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Old 16-03-2016, 15:06   #75
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Re: Discounting a boat that needs a new Motor, Mast or Deck

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I don't think old glass is more prone. The Valiant's in question were built with defective fire retardant resin.
IME, a boat either has blisters, often within <10 years , or may not get them at all.
Agreed.

For boats built in the 70's and 80's, if they were going to get blisters, they already have, and have been repaired or junked by now.

Some makes/models are more likely to get blisters...like late 70's C&C especially.
Some, like Pearsons, rarely (if ever) blister.
(I'm sure there are exceptions, so please don't flame me for my sweeping generalization)

Built like a tank is a good feature in an older boat.
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