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Old 15-03-2016, 07:50   #46
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Re: Discounting a boat that needs a new Motor, Mast or Deck

Lot's of wisdom about buying an old boat with a great hull and updating it..if there isn't too many problems.... Newer boats look flimsy in comparison. I would much rather pull up in an Olde Hinkley or another such boat in that class in tip top condition rather than a brand new (?????) ...you name the production boat.... I bet the Hinkley comes in cheaper too even with all the upgrading...
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Old 15-03-2016, 08:09   #47
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Re: Discounting a boat that needs a new Motor, Mast or Deck

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Originally Posted by sailingfarmer View Post
I know some handy boat workers who were GIVEN boats who spent more money fixing them up than they would have if they just went into the market and bought one. You need to know what you are getting into.
Here is a young couple that is a good example of what you describe:

Sail Around the World. Adventure Travel Documentary Series

Their plan was to sail around the world. The reality, is two years (so far) of expensive boat repairs, and making about 90 videos about boat repairs.

For what they paid for their old boat, they could have bought my P30 and headed to the islands on the first day.

These guys got it right: https://www.youtube.com/c/mondaynever
They bought a good (older) boat, and were sailing in a week.
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Old 15-03-2016, 08:11   #48
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Re: Discounting a boat that needs a new Motor, Mast or Deck

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Lot's of wisdom about buying an old boat with a great hull and updating it..if there isn't too many problems.... Newer boats look flimsy in comparison. I would much rather pull up in an Olde Hinkley or another such boat in that class in tip top condition rather than a brand new (?????) ...you name the production boat.... I bet the Hinkley comes in cheaper too even with all the upgrading...
Agreed. I quite enjoy sailing, but I'm actually about to take on a new project that is exactly this - needs an interior refresh (wiring, plumbing and cushions), the outside could do with a lick of paint, rigging needs replacing and the engines need looking at... however - at the price it's going for, plus all the work to be done (not including my time, but I enjoy it - makes a change from sitting in an office all day), it will still cost me 200,000 LESS than buying a brand new cat of similar size....

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Old 15-03-2016, 08:36   #49
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Re: Discounting a boat that needs a new Motor, Mast or Deck

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Originally Posted by sailingfarmer View Post
Lot's of wisdom about buying an old boat with a great hull and updating it..if there isn't too many problems.... Newer boats look flimsy in comparison. I would much rather pull up in an Olde Hinkley or another such boat in that class in tip top condition rather than a brand new (?????) ...you name the production boat.... I bet the Hinkley comes in cheaper too even with all the upgrading...
Meh, buy a five year old boat that needs minimal work and be done with it. When we bought our Beneteau all it needed was a spinnaker pole ring on the mast. Otherwise it was fully functional, and the cost for a 7 year old boat was less than the refit costs outlined above.

The option isn't an old wreck or a brand new boat. Buy a good used one and stay away from boats that need this much work.

And don't think for a second that replacing these three things puts a boat into tip top shape. Is a hull is so far gone that it needs one, let alone all three of the majors replaced its a good bit everything else is a bit of a wreck as well.
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Old 15-03-2016, 09:36   #50
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Re: Discounting a boat that needs a new Motor, Mast or Deck

Going with an old hull is a no brainer for me. It's the only way for me to afford a boat that size in the first place. I can't afford any decent 35-40 ft cruiser made in the last 20 years, and even if I could they don't seem like a good value to me, nor do I really like a more modern design. The question is whether or not I should buy a recently refit one for $80k, or if I should also consider one with a major upgrade needed for roughly half the price. I don't expect that either boat will be cosmetically perfect or maintenance free, but I do expect to get decades of more good sailing out of the hull. And I'm not interested in resale value, I'm interested in keeping this boat for a long long time and doing some serious sailing. Coastal at first, offshore eventually.

Take a look at these two boats for the sake of comparison. This Tayana 37 for $45k with wooden spars (newer motor and fiberglass decks) versus this Tayana 37 for $82k with (newer motor, fiberglass decks and aluminum spars).

OK, I know that there is a totally different set of equipment on each boat and lots of things to nitpick, there is a 4 year difference in age, and there will definitely be a different set of issues that come up in both surveys. But for the sake of argument, imagine that both boats are otherwise equal with no major issues found in either survey. The one with wooden masts has been listed for nearly two years now, and I think it will probably drop into the $30's before she sells. We could be talking about a nearly 40-50k difference in price. Wouldn't that be more than enough to pay for a new rig?

And that's a fair point about going sailing now versus working on the boat for years to get her ready to sail, but here is one alternative take on that... A boat with an older engine or a wooden mast can still go sailing, just not as boldly or as far offshore. Personally, in my own search for a new boat, the difference in price between $40k and $80k means at least another year of saving up (with no boat at all). A boat with wooden masts or a tired engine goes against my instincts, but it could mean getting it sooner and having time to start sailing. The rig or motor would be replaced professionally when the time was right, and I would have time to work on all the inevitable smaller and/or unexpected things myself.

I've been told it before and I may hear it again now... some people tell me that I just can't buy an acceptable boat for less than 100 grand and don't waste what little money I have. Frankly I think it's ridiculous. Maybe I can't get the boat you want, but I can get a boat I love and I can keep it well maintained and safe and I can do it all on my teacher's salary.

I think the real answer is, which is what some of you are already saying, is to find one that has been recently refit, that starts out at at a fair price, then drops farther based on seller's motivation, so that it still costs more than one needing an upgrade but less than the combined costs of boat+upgrade. That is still my strategy, but these boats are few and far between.

By the way, this is a fun and very helpful discussion. Thanks everybody!
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Old 15-03-2016, 09:53   #51
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Re: Discounting a boat that needs a new Motor, Mast or Deck

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I've been told it before and I may hear it again now... some people tell me that I just can't buy an acceptable boat for less than 100 grand and don't waste what little money I have. Frankly I think it's ridiculous.
I love these sort of people... no actual idea on what boats cost, but ready to offer everyone their opinion at a moment's notice. As you said, just ignore them. My first boat was an O'day 34 that I picked up for $22k. I stand by the fact it was the best boat I've ever owned.

All things being equal - and without seeing it in person - the Tayana for $45k is the one I'd go for. Offer $40k even. It has the right kit on it - good Sunbrella, a Profurl furler, Rolly Tasker sails less than 10 years old. Have a survey done and if it comes up ok, that's the boat I'd get.

Sure, the other boat has a fresher engine, ally spars and Garmin kit on board.

The "fresher" engine has almost 1000 hours on it - that equates to 10 years use (on the basis of 100 hours per year - which is quite a bit), and you don't know how well the engine has been treated during that time.

Ally spars - a second hand mast can be picked up relatively cheap, and you'll want to replace the rigging before you go offshore anyway, so this isn't a huge expense. Take your time, speak to a rigger, find the right second hand mast.

Garmin kit? It's only worth a few k, and if you visit your local boat show, you can normally get a great discount on it.

So in summary - the boats are similar apart from a few bits you can fit down the line. With the $45k boat, you can get it sooner, get sailing faster, and start the hunt for a great condition second hand engine and used mast (if you're looking to save a few $$) when it suits you.

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Old 15-03-2016, 13:48   #52
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Re: Discounting a boat that needs a new Motor, Mast or Deck

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I suppose because I am just asking hypothetically and not about any specific boat, and because my main question at this point is whether or not to bother even going to see a boat with wooden masts or a blown engine.
+1!

Yes. The boat you will take on will not be hypothetical but real dollars.

As Cheechaco said above, some boats with many challenges should be actually seen as a liability.

Boats get broken and can be fixed up. BUT many old boats are not broken, they are simply at the end of their life - years of inadequate maintenance and neglect result in challenges throughout the whole spectrum of the project. Unless you are into projects, experienced and rich, stay away from such boats.

How else could a boat have a broken engine, rotten masts, deck water intrusion and (you name it) all at once ??? This has nothing to do with fixing her up, this is an exercise in catching the hot potato. The last one pays the bill for getting the boat recycled according to local environment laws.

Personally, I would only make exceptions for out and out classics that cannot be replaced and for collector items that may have, to the owner, high emotional and non dollar, non refundable, value.

Stick to your dream, keep on searching,
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Old 15-03-2016, 14:37   #53
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Re: Discounting a boat that needs a new Motor, Mast or Deck

Anyone who is telling you that it's necessary to spend $100k on a cruising boat is nuts. We spent a little more than half that on our 381.

Spend some time cruising yacht world and do some searching. Just as an example here's an older Beneteau Oceanis 400 with a new engine (2011) that looks like she just needs some tlc asking $59,000.

1993 Beneteau Oceanis 400 Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

A well maintained Oday 40 asking $48,000. 1986 O'Day 40 Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

Or a real classic Perry Valiant 40 that's looks to be in good shape asking $49,000. 1976 Valiant Cutter Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com


there are a lot of good boats out there for far less than $100k.
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Old 15-03-2016, 16:20   #54
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Re: Discounting a boat that needs a new Motor, Mast or Deck

Just a note on the Atticus YouTube videos. My take is that they intentionally bought a project boat wanting that specific model. They have rebuilt every system and considering the level of work they did two years was not bad I think. They have a lot of skills - not for the average boat owner for sure.
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Old 15-03-2016, 21:19   #55
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Re: Discounting a boat that needs a new Motor, Mast or Deck

I'm surprised to see a Valiant 40 at that price. Unless there's something the seller is conveniently not mentioning.
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Old 15-03-2016, 22:01   #56
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Re: Discounting a boat that needs a new Motor, Mast or Deck

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I have not seen a Cheoy Lee with foam core or solid glass under the teak. I have seen some with balsa, some with some kind of hard wood and worst of all ... plywood. There is not much consistency on any Taiwan vessel of the vintage, they tended to use whatever was lying in the yard at the moment.
LOL....Always to be expected on any forum, negativity towards yachts that others own. Cheoy Lee were one of the pioneering builders and users of fiberglass, anyone can look that up. And also pioneers of GRP and foam technology. Cheoy Lee have not built a timber boat since the mid 1960's. When you consider that this company has been building yachts for over 100 years then you obviously would also expect that they have used a multitude of construction methods and technologies (Some good, some rubbish). Sorry, however "They tended to use anything lying around in the yard" is a bit of a silly observation when a boat builder is around for so many years whilst most others come and go. Also notable that Cheoy Lee at one point were possibly the worlds largest builder of sailing yachts. Many yachts that others own and sail are built by builders off the back of pioneering building technology by companies such as Cheoy Lee, be it solid FG, or any cored yacht.
All Raymond Richardson designed yachts for Cheoy Lee (such as mine 1974) from early 1960's to early 1980's bar one or two were fiberglass. The others being Timber/Fiberglass...
So I can assure 'boatpoker' that Cheoy Lee have built many solid FB yachts, and also many foam core yachts. And were doing this well before most of today's builders. And I can assure you also that my yacht is solid fiberglass as I regularly drill through the deck, and into the hull

Of course everything I say could be completely wrong, however I chose to believe everything I say!!!!!!!
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Old 16-03-2016, 02:12   #57
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Re: Discounting a boat that needs a new Motor, Mast or Deck

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Meh, buy a five year old boat that needs minimal work and be done with it. When we bought our Beneteau all it needed was a spinnaker pole ring on the mast. Otherwise it was fully functional, and the cost for a 7 year old boat was less than the refit costs outlined above.
Because a less than five year old boat (when manufacturers have been heavily under the squeeze and are desperately trying to save money) will translate into less problems? Right.....

This delivery story hit my feed this morning - take it with a grain of salt as with anything you read on the internet - but I have experienced similar just looking at new boats at boat shows. Winches & davits with undersized or non-existent backing pads, plumbing systems that are glassed in and will be a nightmare to find leaks with, and undersized rigging that I wouldn't dream of taking offshore. This all from the big ones - Beneteau, Moody, Bavaria and the worst culprit - Hanse.

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Old 16-03-2016, 07:35   #58
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Re: Discounting a boat that needs a new Motor, Mast or Deck

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1. Motor $15k
2. Rig $20k
3. Deck $40k
I did the same exact thing for the same price for 1 and 2 about 6 years ago. The deck will be cheaper if you don't replace it with the teak. I got a recent estimate on another boat for $20k.

Jim
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Old 16-03-2016, 07:55   #59
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Re: Discounting a boat that needs a new Motor, Mast or Deck

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Because a less than five year old boat (when manufacturers have been heavily under the squeeze and are desperately trying to save money) will translate into less problems? Right.....

This delivery story hit my feed this morning - take it with a grain of salt as with anything you read on the internet - but I have experienced similar just looking at new boats at boat shows. Winches & davits with undersized or non-existent backing pads, plumbing systems that are glassed in and will be a nightmare to find leaks with, and undersized rigging that I wouldn't dream of taking offshore. This all from the big ones - Beneteau, Moody, Bavaria and the worst culprit - Hanse.

n
I often wonder if those on CF extolling the virtues of recent mass production boats a) never been on one at the boat show, b) are paid to advertise them here or c) are stuck with one so what else will they say.

PS No I am not a conspiracy nut but just this morning on the news there was a blurb about Lord&Taylor being fined by FTC for paying posters on social media for ads masquerading as private posts.
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Old 16-03-2016, 07:58   #60
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Re: Discounting a boat that needs a new Motor, Mast or Deck

There is a great article about rebuilding a Beneteau 430, which unfortunately I cannot find now. Repowering cost $45k total though the engine was only $15k.

Everyone I know who has "saved money" then refit the boat themselves all say they wish they'd have spent more for a better boat.

"buying a motor with a boat around it" - now that is the truth.
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