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Old 14-03-2016, 08:39   #16
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Re: Discounting a boat that needs a new Motor, Mast or Deck

I, too, think that Rex (post #2) is close. These would be the minimum costs. Depending on a host of circumstances and desires the costs may go MUCH higher.
As the recent boatshow the Beta dealer quoted my Can$11L for a forty horse "in the box". So add re'n're plus new tranny and stern gear if the existing ones won't suit.

So why would you even waste time on a "second look" at the boat you've seen? The world is full of boats ready to go.

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Old 14-03-2016, 08:53   #17
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Re: Discounting a boat that needs a new Motor, Mast or Deck

Quote:
Originally Posted by OrangeCrush View Post
I'm wondering if anyone can offer very rough estimates, either by experience or educated guess, of the relative costs of doing any of the following three things:

1) Repowering with a new diesel and shaft (say roughly 40hp)
2) Replacing an old wooden mast and boom with new aluminum spars and standing rigging
3) Replacing an old teak deck with fiberglass (with a small to "normal" amount of water intrustion and core rot)

Let's assume the boat is a 35-40 foot cutter-rigged cruiser of moderate to heavy displacement from the early 80s, and let's assume that the boat is well equipped, has been surveyed, and is in excellent shape except for only one of these issues. And let's assume I'm talking about having the job done professionally, not doing it myself. How much of a discount in price would make such a boat worth it, compared with an otherwise identical boat without such an issue?

I'm patiently underway on the search for my next boat and although I'm determined to avoid anything that can be called a fixer-upper, I have also come to realize the constraints that geography and a limited selection will put on finding viable boats to look at. I'm seeing some boats that have dropped from over $80k to under $50k in the last year or two, and I have to believe that in some cases these 3 issues could be the deal breakers that keep them from selling. Maybe a discount of $20k or $30k is well worth the trouble and expense of properly replacing the motor, the rig, or the deck.

Any thoughts or perspectives on this? Or should I stick to my original criteria of "no major issues"?
Any of those issues rarely exist alone.

If you wish to work on a boat and not sail much then maybe a boat project is your thing.

There are very few boats that are great deals. They are the boats you want to aspire to.

Unless we're talking about a very special boat I personally wouldn't touch any boats with just one of those issues. I have 3 trades and 3 engineering degrees so doing the work isn't the issue. Finding the time to do any one of those jobs is my major issue.

Even on a good boat there will be enough preventative maintenance and enhancements to keep you busy.

Think very hard before buying the bargain.

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Old 14-03-2016, 09:08   #18
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Re: Discounting a boat that needs a new Motor, Mast or Deck

Just received an estimate on removing the Teak decks on my 42' GB and coming back with a non-skid awlgrip surface. Without hitting hidden problems, and we have no water intrusion into the interior showing, we were given a number of 10K + for teak removal and average substrate repairs, and around 9K to 10K for the glass work and non-skid awlgrip surface. this was by a local reputable yard in Gulf Shores, AL.
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Old 14-03-2016, 09:17   #19
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Re: Discounting a boat that needs a new Motor, Mast or Deck

oh dear i was off by 3000-4000usd for the shaft. my pricings are based on reality out here doing this,. have fun.
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Old 14-03-2016, 09:32   #20
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Re: Discounting a boat that needs a new Motor, Mast or Deck

Quote:
Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
"And let's assume I'm talking about having the job done professionally"
Then you get bids from the pros you want to work with. Labor rates will vary widely, and sources of materials (i.e. a used mast? Or a new one? Requiring shipping and in one piece? Or shipping in two pieces and sleeving?) will vary as well.


Generally, you'd take the value of a comparable boat in "sailaway" condition, and then subtract everything you'd have to put into the wreck to bring it back to that same condition. And subtract again for the yard time it will be laid up. Now you've got a maximum value. The price has to be far enough below that to make all the work worthwhile.
And again, generally? If you have to replace a deck and have a yard do it? The boat isn't worth looking at. The deck job alone can exceed the total value of the boat. Not to mention, if it needs a deck, there's more work to be done.
Not all teak decks are screwed down, after the late 80's many builders glued them down. There are only a few screws holding down newer decks. I have passed on two late 90's Swans because they had very thin decks (too much sanding) and the estimate for the 44' boat was ove $100K thru TDS. Would have been different if the price reflected the deck condition.
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Old 14-03-2016, 09:55   #21
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Re: Discounting a boat that needs a new Motor, Mast or Deck

This is a relevant thread in that there are literally thousands of vessels, mostly Taiwan built, that require at least one of these three upgrades and a great many that require all three. There is hardly a west coast marina to be found that doesn't have at least one of these tarp-covered dream killers languishing about. Just one of these faults can be economically devastating, two of these faults... Well someone should have paid you to take the boat from their hands. All three faults and no DYI ability and you're looking at paying a lot of money to cut the boat into small enough pieces to take to the dump.

My daughter recently purchased one of these against my advice. The bait is that there just seems to be so much boat there sitting in the yard for $10,000. Take the bait and you better have a serious DIY dad ready to devote countless hours to the project. Her decks were already done. She had a low-time Yanmar already installed and an alu replacement mast sitting beside the rotten box mast on sawhorses under the hull. These three things are typical but It's the other ten thousand things that get you.

These thousands of Taiwanese POSs were/are imitations of real boats. The builders didn't really get it. They could produce a boat that looked and acted like a real boat but they lacked the lessons learned by hundreds of years of experience building the real things that have stood the test of time.

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Old 14-03-2016, 10:13   #22
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Re: Discounting a boat that needs a new Motor, Mast or Deck

Off topic, sorry folks. Orange Crush are you out of Mt. Sinai/Pt. Jefferson NY? We used to sail with a very distinctive "Orange Crush" (boat was neon orange with about 5 kids) in Mt. Sinai Sailing Assoc. Unlikely you are the same owner, but if on the North Shore possibly the same boat!

Back to our regularly scheduled programming.
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Old 14-03-2016, 10:16   #23
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Re: Discounting a boat that needs a new Motor, Mast or Deck

Great info, thanks everybody. I'm glad I asked.

All your advice is well taken about the deck. I will stay away completely. The thought of finding unseen delamination and core rot already scared me but I wasn't imagining that costs would be so high even in the best case scenarios. No teak decks for me.

But from what I'm hearing, I still think a boat with a tired motor or a wooden mast could be worth considering if the price was right. These are still pricey jobs with lots of related expenses but they seem less likely to lead me down a black hole of unseen problems. Of course this assumes that the survey was done right in the first place and that I can get an accurate estimate in advance. This is not my first boat and I'm not naive about the amount of work it will take just to keep her in good shape, even starting without any major problems. I'm not interested in a project boat and I'm totally in agreement with everyone who is making that point.

But if there is a boat that is otherwise in great shape but no one will buy because of its old spruce mast or its rusted old Perkins, then maybe figuring out how much it would cost to pay a professional to replace it means it's still worth consideration. The seller would be unwise to invest the money because they would not get their investment back with the sale, but as the buyer it seems like it could be an opportunity to start out with a new motor or rig for less than the cost of a similar boat.

Hopefully patience, diligence and luck will make any such strategy unnecessary, but at this point I'm still trying to figure out what boats I should and should not rule out completely.
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Old 14-03-2016, 10:30   #24
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Re: Discounting a boat that needs a new Motor, Mast or Deck

Quote:
Originally Posted by redhead View Post
Off topic, sorry folks. Orange Crush are you out of Mt. Sinai/Pt. Jefferson NY? We used to sail with a very distinctive "Orange Crush" (boat was neon orange with about 5 kids) in Mt. Sinai Sailing Assoc. Unlikely you are the same owner, but if on the North Shore possibly the same boat!

Back to our regularly scheduled programming.

Same boat! I bought it in 2007 from a retired teacher named Harvey in Port Jeff who hadn't sailed it much in the four years he had it. I'm guessing you knew the owner before him?

I sold her last summer and now she lives in Hingham, MA. I got a lot of use out of her first, including lots of upgrades and four trips from NYC to the Bay of Fundy and back. You can see some of my pics and videos here here if you like.

Do you have any more background or stories about her life before me? Harvey told me that he thought someone wrote a newspaper column in a local paper about sailing it around Long Island Sound, but I was never able to find any more info on that.

Now I'm looking for her replacement... I guess I should update my CF profile too.
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Old 14-03-2016, 10:34   #25
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Re: Discounting a boat that needs a new Motor, Mast or Deck

My husband knew the family well. He's back in NY right now but will have him PM you when he returns at the end of the month. Good luck on the next one!
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Old 14-03-2016, 10:55   #26
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Re: Discounting a boat that needs a new Motor, Mast or Deck

Quote:
Originally Posted by OrangeCrush View Post
But from what I'm hearing, I still think a boat with a tired motor or a wooden mast could be worth considering if the price was right. These are still pricey jobs with lots of related expenses but they seem less likely to lead me down a black hole of unseen problems. Of course this assumes that the survey was done right in the first place and that I can get an accurate estimate in advance. This is not my first boat and I'm not naive about the amount of work it will take just to keep her in good shape, even starting without any major problems. I'm not interested in a project boat and I'm totally in agreement with everyone who is making that point.

But if there is a boat that is otherwise in great shape but no one will buy because of its old spruce mast or its rusted old Perkins, then maybe figuring out how much it would cost to pay a professional to replace it means it's still worth consideration. The seller would be unwise to invest the money because they would not get their investment back with the sale, but as the buyer it seems like it could be an opportunity to start out with a new motor or rig for less than the cost of a similar boat.
A new rig or new motor isn't a deal breaker - there are plenty of good boats out there with tired engines or mast issues, just shop carefully and keep asking questions if you have them

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Old 14-03-2016, 11:35   #27
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Re: Discounting a boat that needs a new Motor, Mast or Deck

Quote:
Originally Posted by OrangeCrush View Post
I'm wondering if anyone can offer very rough estimates, either by experience or educated guess, of the relative costs of doing any of the following three things:

1) Repowering with a new diesel and shaft (say roughly 40hp)
2) Replacing an old wooden mast and boom with new aluminum spars and standing rigging
3) Replacing an old teak deck with fiberglass (with a small to "normal" amount of water intrustion and core rot)

Let's assume the boat is a 35-40 foot cutter-rigged cruiser of moderate to heavy displacement from the early 80s, and let's assume that the boat is well equipped, has been surveyed, and is in excellent shape except for only one of these issues. And let's assume I'm talking about having the job done professionally, not doing it myself. How much of a discount in price would make such a boat worth it, compared with an otherwise identical boat without such an issue?

I'm patiently underway on the search for my next boat and although I'm determined to avoid anything that can be called a fixer-upper, I have also come to realize the constraints that geography and a limited selection will put on finding viable boats to look at. I'm seeing some boats that have dropped from over $80k to under $50k in the last year or two, and I have to believe that in some cases these 3 issues could be the deal breakers that keep them from selling. Maybe a discount of $20k or $30k is well worth the trouble and expense of properly replacing the motor, the rig, or the deck.

Any thoughts or perspectives on this? Or should I stick to my original criteria of "no major issues"?
Stick with your original criteria.
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Old 14-03-2016, 11:45   #28
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Re: Discounting a boat that needs a new Motor, Mast or Deck

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Originally Posted by kelbylinn View Post
Just received an estimate on removing the Teak decks on my 42' GB and coming back with a non-skid awlgrip surface. Without hitting hidden problems, and we have no water intrusion into the interior showing...
Not to rain on your parade, but it is possible to have massive problems with water intrusion into the deck core without a single thing showing through to the interior.

I certainly hope that is not the case with your boat.
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Old 14-03-2016, 11:59   #29
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Re: Discounting a boat that needs a new Motor, Mast or Deck

I have just finished installing 40 HP Ninni diesel into a Corbin 39.
Engine $9000
Muffler stuff $1000
The engine was bobtail with shaft connecting it to a Volvo v-drive transmission shaft used is Jeep- Willy front passenger drive shaft.
Damper plate $150
Shaft & Bearings $400
Spare used Volvo v-drive
transmission. $750
Original prop and shaft are being used.
Shaft log PSS dripless $300
Raw water stuff $300
Plates were fabricated to engine bellhousing and engine bed was fabricated all work was done in driveway but would assume install and fabrication costs would be equal to cost of parts.
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Old 14-03-2016, 12:02   #30
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Re: Discounting a boat that needs a new Motor, Mast or Deck

Just my 2 cents:

Change whatever you want but as everybody told you remove the teak (especially if screwed and not glued to the deck) is the worst things to do.

As in italy:

http://www.scandiesel.it/public/pdf/...STINO_2014.pdf

add 22% for the prices...

beta marine 60 hp (a bit overpowered for 35-40 ft, beta 40 hp would be 10.800 euro vat included) (2,4 lt 2800rpm max) with gearbox is 12.000 euro +about 1000 euro for couplings and shaft, VAT included ...installation i guess 3-4k, honest price: 2.000, even less...

3400 euro for mast and boom, used (mast height 16 meters)

Albero per imbarcazione a vela a Pesaro - Kijiji: Annunci di eBay

4000 standing rigging

2500 euro mainsail (30 square meters, average for a 37 ft boat)


Wake up with the roof dropping water: priceless...

Hope this help
Stef
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