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Old 08-11-2011, 14:01   #1
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Difference Between Buying in Greece and UK

Hi all,

I have had a look around various forums, and am starting to get the idea that a purchase in Greece is not really any cheaper than buying in the UK on a like-for-like or even similar-for-similar basis.

We are currently looking at an Oyster 39 in Greece and one in the UK.

Aside from obvious transport costs to get the Greek one back here (we have school age kids and the med doesn't work for us at this stage), it also needs work.

The UK one is up for 35,000 more than the Greece one, and also needs work but more of it appears to be cosmetic

On the face of it, is a 35k differential enough to make the Greek one worthwhile?

They are similar vintage and the key differences are;

UK one benefits from new decks, newer sails and standing rigging. She is inmast reefing as opposed to slab. She also has a bow thruster (useful on these 39's when going astern), better upholstery and an epoxied bottom.

Greek one needs new sails, decks, rigging, bow-thruster, epoxy treatment, maybe inmast reefing.

What do people think the likely cost of the works to bring the Greek one up are? I think about 20k, plus the transport back. There is also potentially VAT due......

Thoughts appreciated!
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Old 08-11-2011, 14:51   #2
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Re: Difference between buying in Greece and UK

If I am looking at the right boats 40k versus 75k.......

I would favour the UK one - partly because that's where she will be based and easier to get inspected (and quotes obtained)..........but also because buying (and then making shipshape - their is always stuff $$$ that needs doing) at arms length is a PITA, and can be expensive when having to use / rely on others. With results not always as expected.

Potentially VAT due (for the one in Greece) - I would read that as highly likely...... and my gut says likely a lot more "maintanence" will be required for the Greek one. Apart from having a few nice upgrades / toys the UK one sounds like it has had some TLC....and IMO that worth paying for (within reason!).

On that note, the 35k difference (on asking prices) is large - but that can be worked on ..............and just to say that I have no idea whether either price is ballpark for a 39 footer of that age - Oyster or not
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Old 08-11-2011, 15:24   #3
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Re: Difference Between Buying in Greece and UK

Thanks for that. Yep, those are the two.

In terms of 'market price' for an oyster of this vintage, there was one for sale in Torquay that we viewed that was up for 78k and has sold for around 70k.

The only others I have seen are the two in question, one in Portugal at around 70k, one in Canada at 60k and there were two others that have disappeared from the market - either sold or kept.

So I would think 40k is cheap, 75k is top end, and the one in question does need work as in the OP.
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Old 08-11-2011, 15:29   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by squashmikeyp25
Hi all,

I have had a look around various forums, and am starting to get the idea that a purchase in Greece is not really any cheaper than buying in the UK on a like-for-like or even similar-for-similar basis.

We are currently looking at an Oyster 39 in Greece and one in the UK.

Aside from obvious transport costs to get the Greek one back here (we have school age kids and the med doesn't work for us at this stage), it also needs work.

The UK one is up for 35,000 more than the Greece one, and also needs work but more of it appears to be cosmetic

On the face of it, is a 35k differential enough to make the Greek one worthwhile?

They are similar vintage and the key differences are;

UK one benefits from new decks, newer sails and standing rigging. She is inmast reefing as opposed to slab. She also has a bow thruster (useful on these 39's when going astern), better upholstery and an epoxied bottom.

Greek one needs new sails, decks, rigging, bow-thruster, epoxy treatment, maybe inmast reefing.

What do people think the likely cost of the works to bring the Greek one up are? I think about 20k, plus the transport back. There is also potentially VAT due......

Thoughts appreciated!
The VAT is 20%. However, it should already be paid. If not you can avoid paying it by taking the boat out of the EU within 30 days of purchase.
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Old 08-11-2011, 19:31   #5
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Re: Difference Between Buying in Greece and UK

Quote:
Originally Posted by squashmikeyp25 View Post
Hi all,

I have had a look around various forums, and am starting to get the idea that a purchase in Greece is not really any cheaper than buying in the UK on a like-for-like or even similar-for-similar basis.

We are currently looking at an Oyster 39 in Greece and one in the UK.

Aside from obvious transport costs to get the Greek one back here (we have school age kids and the med doesn't work for us at this stage), it also needs work.

The UK one is up for 35,000 more than the Greece one, and also needs work but more of it appears to be cosmetic

On the face of it, is a 35k differential enough to make the Greek one worthwhile?

They are similar vintage and the key differences are;

UK one benefits from new decks, newer sails and standing rigging. She is inmast reefing as opposed to slab. She also has a bow thruster (useful on these 39's when going astern), better upholstery and an epoxied bottom.

Greek one needs new sails, decks, rigging, bow-thruster, epoxy treatment, maybe inmast reefing.

What do people think the likely cost of the works to bring the Greek one up are? I think about 20k, plus the transport back. There is also potentially VAT due......

Thoughts appreciated!
I can't see you getting all that for 20,000 pounds.
Might be an idea to use the Greek one as a negotiating lever.
You have a good chance of getting the price down, and maybe quite a lot in this market.
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Old 08-11-2011, 20:22   #6
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Theres no such thing as " potential VAT " liability. It's either VAT paid in Greece and therefore that's that. Or it'd not and you pay it. Anything else is fraud.

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Old 09-11-2011, 02:01   #7
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Re: Difference Between Buying in Greece and UK

The 'Potential VAT' is due to this;

1) UK built boat, so VAT should have been paid. It wasn't because..
2) Boat exported to US under a Certificate of Origin
3) Boat sold outside the EU to a UK citizen
4) Boat brought back into the EU (into Toulon) where customs was cleared but no VAT paid or demanded.

VAT should have been paid at point 4 but wasn't either paid or demanded. I can't pay the VAT as I am purchasing as part of a non-vattable transaction.

Hence the potential liability. Whilst I can't pay it, there is a possible situation where the French customs could ask for the money due to them 12 years ago when they let her in without paying.
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Old 09-11-2011, 08:28   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by squashmikeyp25
The 'Potential VAT' is due to this;

1) UK built boat, so VAT should have been paid. It wasn't because..
2) Boat exported to US under a Certificate of Origin
3) Boat sold outside the EU to a UK citizen
4) Boat brought back into the EU (into Toulon) where customs was cleared but no VAT paid or demanded.

VAT should have been paid at point 4 but wasn't either paid or demanded. I can't pay the VAT as I am purchasing as part of a non-vattable transaction.

Hence the potential liability. Whilst I can't pay it, there is a possible situation where the French customs could ask for the money due to them 12 years ago when they let her in without paying.
There is no " potential liability" the boat is VAT not paid and unless you are vAT registered , VAt is due

Dave
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Old 09-11-2011, 08:55   #9
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pirate Re: Difference Between Buying in Greece and UK

Sad thing about boats...
The problem/debt travels with THEM.... it does not get of with the previous owner...
From the sound of it you've got a tired well travelled boat there and the price reflects that... also the non-vat status...
Personally if I could afford either but could not move I'd go for the UK one...
a/ Could get the price down...
b/ Minimal mileage/wear/sunburn etc in comparison..
c/ Costs not a lot to get to home base..
and finally... your winter workload will be making it fit around you...
not trying to get her home and back up to scratch at great expense...
But... its your choice... let us know your path...
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Old 10-11-2011, 03:26   #10
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Re: Difference Between Buying in Greece and UK

Thanks all.

The VAT issue is a headache, because whilst yes VAT is due, I can't pay this as I am not the responsible party bringing the boat into the EU.

This is the advice of a Marine Lawyer, RYA, brokers etc.

Therefore, I cannot clear this liability, leaving me with an illegal boat. Even if I go to the French authorities - who should have collected the VAT 12 years ago - they cannot accept payment from me.

Anyone else got around this?

It is looking like the UK one would give many less headaches, and many less sleepless nights.

Mike
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Old 10-11-2011, 03:51   #11
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pirate Re: Difference Between Buying in Greece and UK

Quote:
Originally Posted by squashmikeyp25 View Post
Thanks all.

The VAT issue is a headache, because whilst yes VAT is due, I can't pay this as I am not the responsible party bringing the boat into the EU.

This is the advice of a Marine Lawyer, RYA, brokers etc.

Therefore, I cannot clear this liability, leaving me with an illegal boat. Even if I go to the French authorities - who should have collected the VAT 12 years ago - they cannot accept payment from me.

Anyone else got around this?

It is looking like the UK one would give many less headaches, and many less sleepless nights.

Mike
Thats easy if the seller will play.... make the handover and final paperwork/payment in the nearest Turkish port then bring her into Europe... as your a UK Citizen you should be OK to sail her home before making the payment...
I believe the reg's state VAT is due to the Home Country...
Dave... clarification please....
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Old 10-11-2011, 04:06   #12
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Re: Difference Between Buying in Greece and UK

Do the transaction outside the EU? And then (as owner) you import it (and pay the VAT). Obviously cost and hassle involved - but would also be a good sea trial. Could even be done by a delivery Skipper.

Having said that I would still favour the UK based one, I suspect (i.e. have no evidence!) that the PO(s?) for the Greek one have run the maintanence pot down over the years to the point where they have done the maths and decided that better off selling.

Of course could simply be that the Vendor is broke - and keeping a boat abroad ain't cheap and is a constant drain.....could offer him 20k for a deal within a month (survey not showing anything major - like keel about to fall off ) and take a punt on paying for a road trip vs delivery.
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Old 10-11-2011, 04:47   #13
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Re: Difference Between Buying in Greece and UK

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Originally Posted by terra57 View Post
The VAT is 20%. However, it should already be paid. If not you can avoid paying it by taking the boat out of the EU within 30 days of purchase.
Only if you never bring it back. The OP is a Brit and plans to base the boat in the UK. He will have to pay VAT.

I saw this question on YBW. Teak decks alone on a boat like that will likely cost near the price difference. Looks to me like the UK one is a no-brainer. The Greek one is a false bargain - like so many boats for sale (probably the majority of old ones). You have to remember, that a sailing yacht priced at $10 may easily be overpriced, depending on the baggage you get with it.
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Old 10-11-2011, 11:11   #14
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Re: Difference Between Buying in Greece and UK

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Thats easy if the seller will play.... make the handover and final paperwork/payment in the nearest Turkish port then bring her into Europe... as your a UK Citizen you should be OK to sail her home before making the payment...
I believe the reg's state VAT is due to the Home Country...
Dave... clarification please....
If the boat is not VAT paid and in a EU country , then the owner should regularise the VAT not you. The owner can only sell a non VAT boat to you without VAT paid , if you are VAT registered.

Its also advantageous to pay it in greece, the sale value may be more then the financially depreciated value, hence a sale "fixes" the VAT value. I once did a transaction like yours , where the sale was for 250K, but local VAT office accepted that the financial value of the boat before sale ( ie the book value) was 100K.

And yes on new means of transport VAT is technically payable in the destination country not the purchase country, but this is often ignored.

Dave
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