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25-05-2018, 20:50
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#1
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cruiser
Join Date: Jan 2017
Boat: Retired from CF
Posts: 13,317
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Designs based on racing rules vs not
In order to refrain from my derailing this thread http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/....php?p=2638331
I am aware of CCA, IOR and MORC as major influences on boat design over the early "classic plastic" era I'm shopping for a robust under-8.5' beam liveaboard. Context: http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ts-193354.html
For discussion of my needs, statements of incredulity etc, please post to that thread rather than here.
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Example boat list:
The "more headroom" ones that apparently may meet my criteria
Bristol 27 (and 24!)
Nor'sea 27
Westerly Centaur
Cape Dory 25D
O'Day Outlaw 26 (seaworthy for offshore?)
Pacific Seacraft 25
Anyone been on a Hurley 27 ?
Flicka 20 has 5'11" but otherwise living space too tiny?
Allegra 24 seems more promising!
Albin Vega 27 is apparently at 5'10" max, which may be OK
Contessa 26 at 5'8"
Cape Dory 25 (before 25D) only 5'
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One topic could be **which** rule-set is more conducive to my needs, specifically
* headroom, living space "camping comfort"
* weight carrying capacity for liveaboard gear and supplies, and
Higher priorities than that:
* seaworthy: structural integrity, *designed for* survivability in eventual/occasional blue water passage making, best possible safety for its occupants when the sea gets rough.
* also sea-kindly, with the least tiring motion
* full keel or twin/bilge keel, ideally glassed-in, relatively shallow draft, ideally a well protected rudder for safety around reefs (yes I know these will limit speed upwind)
________
Another angle on the topic:
Do the boats listed above that were designed independently of **any** racing rules, tend to meet my needs "better" than those based on MORC or CCA?
For example, the Defender (Columbia) 29, Cape Dory 25D and Bristol 27 are I believe derived from CCA or MORC?
While Nor'sea 27 I believe and of course Westerly Centaur are not.
I'm not saying speed and pointing ability are unimportant, but, they are the lowest priority factors out of those I've mentioned so far.
I realize this is a pretty convoluted topic, but all relevant feedback would be most welcome.
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25-05-2018, 21:14
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#2
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Marine Service Provider
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Victoria B.C.
Boat: Wauquiez Centurion 32
Posts: 2,874
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Re: Designs based on racing rules vs not
Here is an interesting example. More expensive than it should be, has been for sale for a while, but very interesting boat. Does come complete with a trailer.
2007 Alubat Ovni Sonate Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com
Over your beam limit though.
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25-05-2018, 21:28
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#3
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cruiser
Join Date: Jan 2017
Boat: Retired from CF
Posts: 13,317
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Re: Designs based on racing rules vs not
Then I'm not sure how it fits here, example of what? was it designed to fit a racing rule-set?
I'm trying to reduce my list, obviously the universe of boats that **don't** fit my needs is a large one.
Nice boat though!
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25-05-2018, 21:55
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#4
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Marine Service Provider
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Victoria B.C.
Boat: Wauquiez Centurion 32
Posts: 2,874
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Re: Designs based on racing rules vs not
Quote:
Originally Posted by john61ct
Then I'm not sure how it fits here, example of what? was it designed to fit a racing rule-set?
I'm trying to reduce my list, obviously the universe of boats that **don't** fit my needs is a large one.
Nice boat though!
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Ovni's aren't designed to any rating rule. They are tough French offshore voyaging boats built in aluminum. This is (was) their smallest, I think they start at 35' now. They all are beachable and have centerboards.
Obviously in the "or not" category, untainted by any written rule.
Excellent example of what can be done with a trailerable boat. I think that once you get larger than about 25' the compromise made for trailering - eg beam - detract from the design.
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26-05-2018, 09:14
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#5
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Registered User
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 121
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Re: Designs based on racing rules vs not
Some interesting boats to add to your list; first is the Kent Ranger 26, trailer able well built and seaworthy.
Second [/B]is the San Juan 26, this is a IOR 1/4 tonner designed by the designer of the laser sailboats. Its fast for its size and pretty good in rough conditions.
Third on the small size id the Kent Ranger 24, Its a really great boat design with excellent sea keeping abilities.
Fourth is a Cascade 29, Cascade 29's are an older boat design that was built professionally and by kit clear up to 2012. These boats are very seaworthy with many converted to sailing salmon trawlers for use throughout the northwest. People regularly live on them and have been use to circumnavigate so extended open water journeys are well within its capabilities.
Ed Hart's Circumnaviation
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26-05-2018, 12:58
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#6
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: New Zealand
Boat: Moana 33
Posts: 1,092
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Re: Designs based on racing rules vs not
Quote:
Originally Posted by john61ct
...One topic could be which rule-set is more conducive to my needs, specifically
* headroom, living space "camping comfort"
* weight carrying capacity for liveaboard gear and supplies, and
Higher priorities than that:
* seaworthy: structural integrity, *designed for* survivability in eventual/occasional blue water passage making, best possible safety for its occupants when the sea gets rough.
* also sea-kindly, with the least tiring motion
* full keel or twin/bilge keel, ideally glassed-in, relatively shallow draft, ideally a well protected rudder for safety around reefs (yes I know these will limit speed upwind)
.....
Do the boats listed above that were designed independently of any racing rules, tend to meet my needs "better" than those based on MORC or CCA?
I realize this is a pretty convoluted topic, but all relevant feedback would be most welcome.
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Yes a little convoluted, but then so were my priority lists when I started my search. (Do we understand from your other thread that the boat must be trailerable?) Apologies if I misunderstood but it seems you've answered your own question - well-protected rudder, bilge keels (or centreboard for easy trailering?), less draft, better weight-carrying, better headroom, seakindliness, more structural strength - all of these are of course lesser priorities for a racing design. Naturally, freed from any rating rule, the designer can concentrate on the factors you need in a small, more easily trailered boat.
But that answer seems far too obvious, so what information are you really seeking here: which early rating rule produced the most seaworthy design? Better IMO to focus on good/bad points of each design you list (plus others mentioned on the other thread). It took me a year of research/spreadsheet compilation to narrow down my main priorities and focus on suitable designs. Was fun though.
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26-05-2018, 13:02
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#7
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Cowichan Bay, BC (Maple Bay Marina)
Posts: 9,703
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Re: Designs based on racing rules vs not
Dana 24? Big brother of the Flicka.
__________________
Stu Jackson
Catalina 34 #224 (1986) C34IA Secretary
Cowichan Bay, BC, SR/FK, M25, Rocna 10 (22#) (NZ model)
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26-05-2018, 13:45
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#8
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cruiser
Join Date: Jan 2017
Boat: Retired from CF
Posts: 13,317
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Re: Designs based on racing rules vs not
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stu Jackson
Dana 24?
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yes great boat, but over a 8.5' max beam, strict deal-breaker limit
Quote:
Originally Posted by NevisDog
Do we understand from your other thread that the boat must be trailerable?
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Well the above covers that. Not at all prioritizing an "easily trailerable" boat, too much in opposition to these higher seaworthy priorities. The top choice so far might be 5 ton and a 4' keel like Nor'sea 27. Certainly Mac26x is no good 8-)
And definitely not "small is good", for liveaboard "comfort" / cargo space, actually the bigger the better, but **within 8.5' beam**
which means 24-29', very rarely over 30'. Headroom is especially hard to find, nature of the beast.
In the "under $15K" thread this spun off from, I not only posited an opposition between internal space and the long overhangs
e.g. 33' LOA / 23' LWL
driven by CCA rules, but thought that may also reduce ability to handle heavy seas offshore. Well-qualified voices strongly disagreed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drew13440
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Between the rule-sets, MORC seems more conducive, as with Columbia / Defender, but maybe Centaur and Nor'sea even more so, with no racing rules at all?
Maybe such generalization is not useful, but I certainly didn't want to continue derailing that thread.
> It took me a year of research/spreadsheet compilation to narrow down my main priorities and focus on suitable designs. Was fun though.
Yes challenging and stimulating anyway.
I'd really like to **narrow** it down, but at least I don't seem to keep finding many new candidates.
The hardest part is not being ready to pull the trigger yet, and seeing crazy cheap bargains pop up 8-)
Nice problem to have though!
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26-05-2018, 14:11
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#9
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: New Zealand
Boat: Moana 33
Posts: 1,092
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Re: Designs based on racing rules vs not
Quote:
Originally Posted by john61ct
...In the "under $15K" thread this spun off from, I not only posited an opposition between internal space and the long overhangs
e.g. 33' LOA / 23' LWL
driven by CCA rules, but thought that may also reduce ability to handle heavy seas offshore. Well-qualified voices strongly disagreed. ...
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Haven't read the other thread but - long overhangs/short WL/CCA rules equates to less 'usable' internal space (and less speed) for a given LOA, not necessarily for a given $ value though.
Anyway, Vancouver 27/28 was definitely on my shortlist choice for offshore - just takes a few more years of saving.
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26-05-2018, 14:14
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#10
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Registered User
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 121
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Re: Designs based on racing rules vs not
There is also a Vancouver 25 out there but its got to be dog slow. but it is trailer able.
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26-05-2018, 14:55
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#11
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cruiser
Join Date: Jan 2017
Boat: Retired from CF
Posts: 13,317
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Re: Designs based on racing rules vs not
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wayfarer1008
There is also a Vancouver 25 out there but its got to be dog slow. but it is trailer able.
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I had lusted after the 27 but too wide, the Vancouver 25 just squeaks, and has headroom!
Plus nice write ups about its being seaworthy, but apparently wet
thanks!
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26-05-2018, 18:17
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#12
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Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Orange Lake, FL
Boat: '79 Albin Vega, '88 Catalina 22
Posts: 326
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Re: Designs based on racing rules vs not
Quote:
Originally Posted by john61ct
Albin Vega 27 is apparently at 5'10" max, which may be OK
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'78 and '79 Vegas have 5'10" in the main saloon, older versions have a good bit less. I have not measured them, but judging by the angle I have to hold my head, I'm guessing 5' 8".
Being 5' 9.5" myself, we were darn lucky to find a '79.
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26-05-2018, 18:57
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#14
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Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Southern New Zealand
Posts: 60
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Re: Designs based on racing rules vs not
A friend of mine once said "If you like sailing buy a slow boat - you get more of it." Seriously, Speed is your friend certainly in changeable weather.
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27-05-2018, 03:35
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#15
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cruiser
Join Date: Jan 2017
Boat: Retired from CF
Posts: 13,317
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Re: Designs based on racing rules vs not
That Albin year info is gold to know thanks!
Need a sturdier keel and rudder protection for cruising coral reefs.
And yes raw speed would be nice, Mac26m with a 70HP offers that, but it seems everything is a compromise, "surprisingly fast for its size" is a phrase I do keep a lookout for.
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