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Old 25-05-2018, 20:50   #1
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Designs based on racing rules vs not

In order to refrain from my derailing this thread http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/....php?p=2638331

I am aware of CCA, IOR and MORC as major influences on boat design over the early "classic plastic" era I'm shopping for a robust under-8.5' beam liveaboard. Context: Trailerable blue-ocean: exists?

For discussion of my needs, statements of incredulity etc, please post to that thread rather than here.

________
Example boat list:
The "more headroom" ones that apparently may meet my criteria
Bristol 27 (and 24!)
Nor'sea 27
Westerly Centaur
Cape Dory 25D
O'Day Outlaw 26 (seaworthy for offshore?)
Pacific Seacraft 25
Anyone been on a Hurley 27 ?

Flicka 20 has 5'11" but otherwise living space too tiny?
Allegra 24 seems more promising!
Albin Vega 27 is apparently at 5'10" max, which may be OK
Contessa 26 at 5'8"
Cape Dory 25 (before 25D) only 5'

________
One topic could be **which** rule-set is more conducive to my needs, specifically

* headroom, living space "camping comfort"
* weight carrying capacity for liveaboard gear and supplies, and

Higher priorities than that:
* seaworthy: structural integrity, *designed for* survivability in eventual/occasional blue water passage making, best possible safety for its occupants when the sea gets rough.
* also sea-kindly, with the least tiring motion

* full keel or twin/bilge keel, ideally glassed-in, relatively shallow draft, ideally a well protected rudder for safety around reefs (yes I know these will limit speed upwind)

________
Another angle on the topic:

Do the boats listed above that were designed independently of **any** racing rules, tend to meet my needs "better" than those based on MORC or CCA?

For example, the Defender (Columbia) 29, Cape Dory 25D and Bristol 27 are I believe derived from CCA or MORC?

While Nor'sea 27 I believe and of course Westerly Centaur are not.

I'm not saying speed and pointing ability are unimportant, but, they are the lowest priority factors out of those I've mentioned so far.

I realize this is a pretty convoluted topic, but all relevant feedback would be most welcome.
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Old 25-05-2018, 21:14   #2
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Re: Designs based on racing rules vs not

Here is an interesting example. More expensive than it should be, has been for sale for a while, but very interesting boat. Does come complete with a trailer.

2007 Alubat Ovni Sonate Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

Over your beam limit though.
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Old 25-05-2018, 21:28   #3
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Re: Designs based on racing rules vs not

Then I'm not sure how it fits here, example of what? was it designed to fit a racing rule-set?

I'm trying to reduce my list, obviously the universe of boats that **don't** fit my needs is a large one.

Nice boat though!
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Old 25-05-2018, 21:55   #4
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Re: Designs based on racing rules vs not

Quote:
Originally Posted by john61ct View Post
Then I'm not sure how it fits here, example of what? was it designed to fit a racing rule-set?

I'm trying to reduce my list, obviously the universe of boats that **don't** fit my needs is a large one.

Nice boat though!
Ovni's aren't designed to any rating rule. They are tough French offshore voyaging boats built in aluminum. This is (was) their smallest, I think they start at 35' now. They all are beachable and have centerboards.

Obviously in the "or not" category, untainted by any written rule.

Excellent example of what can be done with a trailerable boat. I think that once you get larger than about 25' the compromise made for trailering - eg beam - detract from the design.
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Old 26-05-2018, 09:14   #5
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Re: Designs based on racing rules vs not

Some interesting boats to add to your list; first is the Kent Ranger 26, trailer able well built and seaworthy.
Second [/B]is the San Juan 26, this is a IOR 1/4 tonner designed by the designer of the laser sailboats. Its fast for its size and pretty good in rough conditions.
Third on the small size id the Kent Ranger 24, Its a really great boat design with excellent sea keeping abilities.
Fourth is a Cascade 29, Cascade 29's are an older boat design that was built professionally and by kit clear up to 2012. These boats are very seaworthy with many converted to sailing salmon trawlers for use throughout the northwest. People regularly live on them and have been use to circumnavigate so extended open water journeys are well within its capabilities.
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Old 26-05-2018, 12:58   #6
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Re: Designs based on racing rules vs not

Quote:
Originally Posted by john61ct View Post
...One topic could be which rule-set is more conducive to my needs, specifically

* headroom, living space "camping comfort"
* weight carrying capacity for liveaboard gear and supplies, and

Higher priorities than that:
* seaworthy: structural integrity, *designed for* survivability in eventual/occasional blue water passage making, best possible safety for its occupants when the sea gets rough.
* also sea-kindly, with the least tiring motion
* full keel or twin/bilge keel, ideally glassed-in, relatively shallow draft, ideally a well protected rudder for safety around reefs (yes I know these will limit speed upwind)
.....
Do the boats listed above that were designed independently of any racing rules, tend to meet my needs "better" than those based on MORC or CCA?

I realize this is a pretty convoluted topic, but all relevant feedback would be most welcome.
Yes a little convoluted, but then so were my priority lists when I started my search. (Do we understand from your other thread that the boat must be trailerable?) Apologies if I misunderstood but it seems you've answered your own question - well-protected rudder, bilge keels (or centreboard for easy trailering?), less draft, better weight-carrying, better headroom, seakindliness, more structural strength - all of these are of course lesser priorities for a racing design. Naturally, freed from any rating rule, the designer can concentrate on the factors you need in a small, more easily trailered boat.

But that answer seems far too obvious, so what information are you really seeking here: which early rating rule produced the most seaworthy design? Better IMO to focus on good/bad points of each design you list (plus others mentioned on the other thread). It took me a year of research/spreadsheet compilation to narrow down my main priorities and focus on suitable designs. Was fun though.
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Old 26-05-2018, 13:02   #7
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Re: Designs based on racing rules vs not

Dana 24? Big brother of the Flicka.
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Old 26-05-2018, 13:45   #8
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Re: Designs based on racing rules vs not

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stu Jackson View Post
Dana 24?
yes great boat, but over a 8.5' max beam, strict deal-breaker limit

Quote:
Originally Posted by NevisDog View Post
Do we understand from your other thread that the boat must be trailerable?
Well the above covers that. Not at all prioritizing an "easily trailerable" boat, too much in opposition to these higher seaworthy priorities. The top choice so far might be 5 ton and a 4' keel like Nor'sea 27. Certainly Mac26x is no good 8-)

And definitely not "small is good", for liveaboard "comfort" / cargo space, actually the bigger the better, but **within 8.5' beam**

which means 24-29', very rarely over 30'. Headroom is especially hard to find, nature of the beast.

In the "under $15K" thread this spun off from, I not only posited an opposition between internal space and the long overhangs

e.g. 33' LOA / 23' LWL

driven by CCA rules, but thought that may also reduce ability to handle heavy seas offshore. Well-qualified voices strongly disagreed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drew13440 View Post
Rhodes Swiftsure: 1962 33' CCA Centerboard Sailboat - $5800(Baltimore)
[IMG]https://i.imgur.com/hK2RUCD.png[/URL] http://baltimore.craigslist.org/boa/...582890629.html
Between the rule-sets, MORC seems more conducive, as with Columbia / Defender, but maybe Centaur and Nor'sea even more so, with no racing rules at all?

Maybe such generalization is not useful, but I certainly didn't want to continue derailing that thread.

> It took me a year of research/spreadsheet compilation to narrow down my main priorities and focus on suitable designs. Was fun though.

Yes challenging and stimulating anyway.

I'd really like to **narrow** it down, but at least I don't seem to keep finding many new candidates.

The hardest part is not being ready to pull the trigger yet, and seeing crazy cheap bargains pop up 8-)

Nice problem to have though!
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Old 26-05-2018, 14:11   #9
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Re: Designs based on racing rules vs not

Quote:
Originally Posted by john61ct View Post
...In the "under $15K" thread this spun off from, I not only posited an opposition between internal space and the long overhangs
e.g. 33' LOA / 23' LWL
driven by CCA rules, but thought that may also reduce ability to handle heavy seas offshore. Well-qualified voices strongly disagreed. ...
Haven't read the other thread but - long overhangs/short WL/CCA rules equates to less 'usable' internal space (and less speed) for a given LOA, not necessarily for a given $ value though.

Anyway, Vancouver 27/28 was definitely on my shortlist choice for offshore - just takes a few more years of saving.
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Old 26-05-2018, 14:14   #10
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Re: Designs based on racing rules vs not

There is also a Vancouver 25 out there but its got to be dog slow. but it is trailer able.
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Old 26-05-2018, 14:55   #11
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Re: Designs based on racing rules vs not

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wayfarer1008 View Post
There is also a Vancouver 25 out there but its got to be dog slow. but it is trailer able.
I had lusted after the 27 but too wide, the Vancouver 25 just squeaks, and has headroom!

Plus nice write ups about its being seaworthy, but apparently wet

thanks!
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Old 26-05-2018, 18:17   #12
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Re: Designs based on racing rules vs not

Quote:
Originally Posted by john61ct View Post
Albin Vega 27 is apparently at 5'10" max, which may be OK

'78 and '79 Vegas have 5'10" in the main saloon, older versions have a good bit less. I have not measured them, but judging by the angle I have to hold my head, I'm guessing 5' 8".



Being 5' 9.5" myself, we were darn lucky to find a '79.
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Old 26-05-2018, 18:49   #13
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Re: Designs based on racing rules vs not

Don't know if I would take it off shore, but what about the C&C Mega?
8 foot beam and lifting keel.
MEGA 30 OD (C&C) sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com
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Old 26-05-2018, 18:57   #14
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Re: Designs based on racing rules vs not

A friend of mine once said "If you like sailing buy a slow boat - you get more of it." Seriously, Speed is your friend certainly in changeable weather.
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Old 27-05-2018, 03:35   #15
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Re: Designs based on racing rules vs not

That Albin year info is gold to know thanks!

Need a sturdier keel and rudder protection for cruising coral reefs.

And yes raw speed would be nice, Mac26m with a 70HP offers that, but it seems everything is a compromise, "surprisingly fast for its size" is a phrase I do keep a lookout for.
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