cutters downwind sails

[wanabe sailor]

can you put 2 hank on jibs on fore stay for extended downwind sailing, I have an endurance 35 cutter , boat had never been in water ,not finished, I completed it and had the mast and rigging installed, boat came with 5 new hank on sails, spent 2 summers learning to sail it in bc , boat will sail itself on beam and close reach, no autopilot, but downwind it is unbalanced, I made a whisker pole and am thinking of getting another no1 jib so I can fly 2 jibs downwind on forestay, staysail is much smaller and too low, and main just unbalances boat, I have a hydraulic autopilot but don't want to work it too much, please only people with experience with these rigs, no armchair sailors, I was one but never advised. this was a dekleers bros endurance, took 37 years to make it to water, but its happy now. boat has genoa but 2 jibs would likely be more manageable downwind, im talking about extended downwind not just daysail. Thanks

[Alan Mighty]

Originally Posted by wanabe sailor

... but downwind it is unbalanced, ... and main just unbalances boat

When you use the term 'unbalanced', I think you're raising the question of helm balance and the generation of a turning moment caused by the lack of balance between the sails for'd of the mast and the mainsail. And perhaps you're also raising the question of the main blanketing your staysail (if you have your headsail poled out).

You have a few options, two of which could be:

1. depending on the true wind speed, the true wind angle, and the sea state you might douse the mainsail and just sail to goosewinged foresails: a headsail, probably with its clew held out by a whisker pole; and a staysail.

Of course, instead of dousing the mainsail completely, you could reef it to a point such that it does not blanket your staysail (if there be such a point).

2. tack downwind, meaning that you would avoid running dead downwind or close to dead downwind and would instead gybe back and forth to keep the true wind angle between, say, 120 degrees and 150 degrees (port and stbd).

Depending on hull and rig configuration, some boats sail much better tacking downwind than running dead downwind or close to DDW. Others, not so much.

Tacking downwind on some boats avoids rolling that can develop when sailing DDW.

[wanabe sailor]

yes helm unbalanced, staysail too low wont really pole out as it hits lifelines cant raise it as its already at top, have 5 sails and tried all kinds of combos boat will sail downwind but autopilot works too hard, other people have told me 2 headsails work with slightly upwind one poled out, but I never got details on which stays, too many boats seem to have roller furling and don't know what im talking about as they are local boats not heading off anywhere, staysail stay is to short to balance out another no1 jib , btw this boat has 2 backstays and is quite strong, but slow full keel. the main question is can you raise 2 hanked on jibs wing on wing on one forestay and what problems can it cause ie luff tension

[wanabe sailor]

other possibility is removeable inner forestay ie dyneema or like, as would have to remove it for other points of sail, but then would need another halyard, reason im asking is its time to order another jib for summer if 2 would work

[Orion Jim]

I have roller furling on my staysail and yankee. My downwind rig consists of furling my staysail, using a preventer on my mainsail to keep it under full control, and using a whisker pole to keep my yankee on the opposite side. Thus there is no blanketing and both sails are under full control.
I have a wind vane so no worries about an autopilot. My autopilot is reserved for use only when under power.
The hanked twin headsail rigs with the best performance relied on twin head stays, normally side by side. A more modern arrangement today would use a twin grooved foil but raising and lowering sail would not be easy or safe.

[Meandercp]

The short answer is yes, you can do this and it should be fairly stable going downwind. Luff tension is not quite as important going downwind, so you should be OK there.

Your boat will probably roll some and possibly a lot depending on the wave direction. That will affect how hard your autopilot will have to work.

The down side will be raising and lowering your sails. You will be handling both sails at once and that could be a hand full when the wind pipes up and you need to reduce sail. You can jibe the windward sail and sheet it in parallel to the leeward sail so that you are sailing with a double thick sail for a while, but you will eventually have to bring them both down. At that point you can tie them to the lifelines while you raise a smaller sail. Separate and bag them at your convenience.

A second stay or an unstayed jib would make handling one at a time easier, but may not be worth it to you if you can figure out a good procedure.

If you are talking about long distances, you may want to adjust one of the sails a few inches so that the hanks don't line up and rub on each other.

[Benz]

As the last reply says, it's gonna be a cluster when you need to get sails in. With a cutter, though, the mainsail is the downwind driver, unless it's embarrassingly small. On my cutter I can prevent the boom, and sail with the main by the lee to keep the jib full. Stay'sl comes down for DDW. I far prefer tacking downwind to keep both sails on the same side. There's nothing like the mainsail to steady the boat and keep it from rolling. The difference between even the storm main and no storm main when going DDW in high wind and big seas is astonishing--far steadier ride with a scrap of main up.

To summarize: never sail without the main. Also, my Sailomat servo-pendulum windvane steered us ddw very nicely. It's just a matter of getting the settings right.

[wanabe sailor]

Thanks for all reply's , gives me some options,

[Adelie]

I have been intending to try this myself but haven’t got the appropriate sails yet.

I can see 2 ways to do this.

1. Both sails hanked to the head stay. Smaller sail poles to windward, lager sheets to end of boom. Before going out I would layout the sails on the dock or on the grass in a park luff to luff. Pull the shorter one up or down relative to the taller one until you’ve got all the hanks on one side as far apart from the hanks on the other. Make a pennant for the top of the shorter sail so the 2 sails can share the halyard. At the bottom of the shorter sail you will need a block and tackle so you can adjust luff tension in the smaller sail separately from the taller sail. Next use tape and pens to write directly on the sail the number of the hanks in order starting at the bottom. Once you’ve sailed a while and verified the order use a marker directly on the sail. Raising the sails together you will want to slightly overhoist for the taller sail because when you tighten up the downhaul on the smaller sail is will relieve some tension on the taller one. Hoisting I would have both sails on the leeward side and would flop the smaller over to windward once hoisted.

2. Hoist one sail on the forestay and the other on its luff. The one hoisted on its luff should have a wire or Dyneema luffwire. Tack it to a cleat and hoist on the spin halyard.