Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 18-06-2012, 18:03   #16
Senior Cruiser
 
rebel heart's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 6,190
Images: 3
Regarding the running backstays, our Hans Christian is a true cutter rig with only the single backstay. It's been working like a charm for 37 years.
__________________

__________________
rebel heart is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-06-2012, 22:22   #17
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 2,433
Re: Cutter Rig Easier to Singlehand?

For all of you that have mentioned reefing a staysail, I have the question of how do you work it out so you dont have to change the sheet block location? A club foot is out of the question for me since I concider them just what they are called, a club. The problem I forsee is that I dont want the sheeting angle to change if I reef the staysail. Do I just give the dimensions to a sail maker and hope or is there a formula to figure it out ahead of time? Did you folks have long tracks for your staysail sheets or the other extreem,just a fixed block? I would be happy with a fixed block if it would set well close hauled reefed or full. ANY SUGGESTIONS?_____Grant.
__________________

__________________
gjordan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-06-2012, 22:53   #18
Senior Cruiser
 
roverhi's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Kona, Hawaii, Carlsbad, CA
Boat: 1969 Pearson 35 #108 & 1976 Sabre 28
Posts: 6,005
Send a message via Yahoo to roverhi
Re: Cutter Rig Easier to Singlehand?

I only reefed the staysail once and it's been years but seem to remember very little change for the sheet block. Our staysail blocks were on tracks about 4' long so had plenty of room to vary the sheet position.

Running backs are much reccomended. Another Westsail owner was finishing up a circum. nav. of the pacific and ran into bad wx off the Oregun coast. He was down to triple reefed main and staysail running before the storm and happened to go forward and sight up the mast. The staysail stay was pulling the mast so far out of column he thought for sure the mast would collapse. Fortunately it didn't but he pulled into SF and installed running backs for the rest of his trip down to Newport Beach. Never had to use the running backs again but gave him a lot of peace of mind should he ever need them again. Setting the running backs was not a problem especially cruising when we might jibe or tack once a week or less. Didn't use them coastal sailing but usually set them up offshore just to give the mast a little more support. Today, with the new synthetics, running backs should be a piece of cake to set up.
__________________
Peter O.
'Ae'a Pearson 35
roverhi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-06-2012, 22:53   #19
Moderator
 
Adelie's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: La Ciudad de la Misión Didacus de Alcalá en Alta California, Virreinato de Nueva España
Boat: Cal 20
Posts: 4,621
Re: Cutter Rig Easier to Singlehand?

Quote:
Originally Posted by gjordan View Post
For all of you that have mentioned reefing a staysail, I have the question of how do you work it out so you dont have to change the sheet block location? A club foot is out of the question for me since I concider them just what they are called, a club. The problem I forsee is that I dont want the sheeting angle to change if I reef the staysail. Do I just give the dimensions to a sail maker and hope or is there a formula to figure it out ahead of time? Did you folks have long tracks for your staysail sheets or the other extreem,just a fixed block? I would be happy with a fixed block if it would set well close hauled reefed or full. ANY SUGGESTIONS?_____Grant.
Use an adjustable tack pendant to get the sheeting positions to match. Once you've figured out the right length make the length permanent. Personally I would want a short track to sheet to even with the pendant, as the sail ages, wind strength changes and rig tightness changes minor adjustments fore and aft would be useful.
__________________
A house is but a boat so poorly built and so firmly run aground no one would think to try and refloat it.
SailboatData
Adelie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-06-2012, 23:27   #20
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cowes (Winter), Baltic (Summer) (the boat!); somewhere in the air (me!)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 19,750
Re: Cutter Rig Easier to Singlehand?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce smith View Post
In the thread title you mention easy, and then ask if it makes life simple. The two are not the same. A modern boat is surely easier to sail with roller thingys and gizmos, as long as they do not break. A traditional boat is less easy, but vastly more simple. I like my 12 ton gaff ketch.
To each his own. I grew up with hanked-on headsails and see their charm. For coastal sailing in a smaller boat, a hanked on yankee and suit of jibs is great fun, and gives great performance compared to a roller furled yankee which never has the right shape when reefed. But for sailing offshore, I would certainly want the staysail (and yankee) on a roller furler. When a storm blows up is not the time to be futzing around the foredeck. Roller furling gear, by this day and age, is extremely reliable.

Self-tacking staysails are also a really big advantage in heavy weather, reducing workload and further reducing the risk that you might need to leave the safety of the cockpit in heavy weather. The downside is that you can't trim them worth a d*m* so hard to get a decent shape.

My staysail is made of extra heavy sailcloth and is on a massive oversized furler - it is specifically designed to serve as a storm sail. It's a lifesaver in tough weather. I never reef it even in 50 knots -- the center of effort is so much lower that it never causes a problem with excessive heeling. I do keep both runners set up hard once the main is reefed to 50% or less (at that point, they don't need to be tacked). I did have a top shackle of the staysail halyard explode in a storm once -- quite scary, but it was crevice corrosion, and could have happened with any rig. I now keep loops of Dyneema up there for safety (and I changed the shackles).
__________________
Dockhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-06-2012, 00:17   #21
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 2,441
Re: Cutter Rig Easier to Singlehand?

Quote:
Originally Posted by gjordan View Post
For all of you that have mentioned reefing a staysail, I have the question of how do you work it out so you dont have to change the sheet block location?
... I dont want the sheeting angle to change if I reef the staysail. Do I just give the dimensions to a sail maker and hope or is there a formula to figure it out ahead of time?
... ANY SUGGESTIONS?_____Grant.
Grant

It's pretty straightforward: the clew in the reefed position needs to be raised relative to the corresponding tack, when compared to their relative heights off the deck when unreefed.

The attached sketch shows the reason: the sheeting angle (crudely) should bisect the corner angle at the clew. For the sheeting angle to remain the same, the smaller triangle representing the reefed staysail has a steeper rise along the foot.
Not rocket science, and competent sailmaker should be able to get this right.

Make sure you get them to confirm this in writing before placing the work with them, though!
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Reefing Layout for constant sheeting angle.gif
Views:	81
Size:	2.4 KB
ID:	42475  
__________________
Andrew Troup is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-06-2012, 08:50   #22
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 2,433
Re: Cutter Rig Easier to Singlehand?

Andrew, Thank You, you confirmed what I thought. Unfortunatly when I had a staysail cut for my last boat the sailmaker couldnt figure it out , and talked me out of reef points. Adelie, Thank You also, I am assuming I will be converting my next boat (whatever it will be) to a double headsail rig with a removable inner forestay, and I was hoping to keep it simple with just a sheet block for the staysail. I hadnt even concidered that age and stretch would require adjustable leads. I have lived with runners before and since they were only used when the staysail was used (not very often) or if I was going to weather in a steep chop, I dont find them a problem. A roller furling jib, a reefable staysail on a removable stay and a triple reefed main is what I will strive for, but the old pocket book will dictate how close to that I end up with. Oh Yes, toss in a 3/4 oz drifter for those wonderful light air days. Thanks to all on this thread.____Grant.
__________________
gjordan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-06-2012, 09:44   #23
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: between the devil and the deep blue sea
Boat: a sailing boat
Posts: 17,314
Re: Cutter Rig Easier to Singlehand?

a) smaller main, easier to reef (esp. when running),
b) easier to reduce sail quickly, just drop the foresail,
c) easier to tack, esp if you have a self tacking staysail,

just few of probably many more

b.
__________________
barnakiel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-06-2012, 11:15   #24
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Probably in an anchorage or a boatyard..
Boat: Ebbtide 33' steel cutter
Posts: 3,537
Re: Cutter Rig Easier to Singlehand?

Quote:
Originally Posted by austinrick View Post
I see more than one reference (in sailboat design reviews, guides - maybe in Henkel) to the cutter rig making life simpler for the singlehander.
Not sure in lighter conditions it's much simpler. One more sail to deal with. But offshore I see no reason to change to any other sail plan, for me solo on a 33'er anyway. If the wind gets up the you can easily get rid of the foresail in a moment and with it that constant worry that the furling line might part. Then nice low central strong sail plan with fewer bits to break.

I have diamond stays and jumper struts so no running backstays to worry about, though might fit some dynex dux in readyness just in case things really get nasty and a bit more mast support would help.
__________________
conachair is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 19-06-2012, 15:58   #25
Senior Cruiser
 
rebel heart's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 6,190
Images: 3
Quote:
Originally Posted by conachair

Not sure in lighter conditions it's much simpler. One more sail to deal with. But offshore I see no reason to change to any other sail plan, for me solo on a 33'er anyway. If the wind gets up the you can easily get rid of the foresail in a moment and with it that constant worry that the furling line might part. Then nice low central strong sail plan with fewer bits to break.

I have diamond stays and jumper struts so no running backstays to worry about, though might fit some dynex dux in readyness just in case things really get nasty and a bit more mast support would help.
It's a few items in order that make it easier I think.

a) With a cutter you (probably) fly a yankee up forward.
b) Putting a yankee on hanks isn't a big deal as it's a pretty small sail to have on deck or stowed.
c) Dropping the staysail on a boom is easy as pie.

Now you've got nothing up forward and can throw a big light air sail up. Most folks I see who motor a lot have big ass genoas on roller furlers that simply won't stay filled in anything under 10 knots. Around here (and all the way down to Ecuador and further) < 10 knot winds is the norm.

It's a pain to run anything other than the genoa with the roller furler, so they have to carry a pole to keep it out. I don't really see how I'd ever need a pole, or what I'd do with one, with a cutter. If a 0.5oz drifter won't stay open a pole won't help.
__________________
rebel heart is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-06-2012, 16:59   #26
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 2,441
Re: Cutter Rig Easier to Singlehand?

Couple of thoughts.

I don't personally see any place for boltropes on a single handed vessel, other than perhaps a roller-mandrel mainsail - but I have reservations even about those, because they trade off ease-of-use for 'reliability when things are hitting the fan', which as others point out is paramount when on your own.

I particularly don't like not being able to reef while running off. This is particularly important for a singlehander, and for serious singlehanding on big boats I'd like to suggest a couple of extra slab reefing positions above the third reef, with messengers rigged.

In a tight pinch where you're caught with way too much sail up, and running off while you deal with it is the only 'safe' option (particularly if engine is inoperative), you can set these up, (leading them not to the boom end but instead to improvised purchases at the stern, eg through existing eyebolts and rolling hitched or prusiked back to themselves) similarly to runners, to wrestle the sail off the lee rigging. It's not in any way elegant, but if you're lucky and plucky it'll be sufficient to get the sail reefed or down.

It's the one thing I do like about in-mast (or other vertical mandrel) roller reefing mainsails: provided the gear is strong enough, you can reef or put away the mainsail, on any course, at virtually any windstrength.

Getting back to the role of boltropes in assisting disastrous headsail scenarios: Specifically it puzzles me that more people do not fit sliders in lieu of boltropes to furling headsails. Apart from making it feasible to swap sails offshore (which is otherwise only an option in calm conditions for a singlehander) it's a get out of gaol card if the furler won't furl.

An unrelated aside, but for completeness on the "sheet lead angle" issue for staysails: Adjusting this is problematic for the sort of self-tacking staysail I personally prefer.
This has a track (curved in two dimensions to keep foot and leech tight so it doesn't flog as it tacks) but no boom (to minimise "foredeck combat" situations).

As others have pointed out, even if the sailmaker gets the clew height dead right (which is not a given), the sail will stretch (hopefully minimally, with a staysail), and different conditions favour different lead angles.

Most cruisers don't pay such niceties much heed, but for those who like the look and feel of a well-set sail, there's an alternative which some may not have come across: the multi-hole clewboard, per sketch attached. Construction can be just like a mainsail headboard.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Staysail clewboard.gif
Views:	79
Size:	2.1 KB
ID:	42510  
__________________
Andrew Troup is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-06-2012, 17:22   #27
CF Adviser
 
Bash's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: sausalito
Boat: 14 meter sloop
Posts: 7,260
Re: Cutter Rig Easier to Singlehand?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Troup View Post
As others have pointed out, even if the sailmaker gets the clew height dead right (which is not a given), the sail will stretch (hopefully minimally, with a staysail), and different conditions favour different lead angles.
If the sailmaker comes to the boat and makes his own measurements, there's no reason for the clew height to be wrong.

I had a yankee built by the Hood loft in San Francisco a couple years ago, and I specified in the contract that I would not accept the sail unless it lead properly to the exact center of my fairlead track. Hood sewed a mark into the clew that showed exactly the angle of the sheet should take to put even tension on the leech and foot. Sure enough, when the sail was installed, the sheet conformed to that angle while it lead to the fairlead exactly in the center of its track.

They can build them right if they have to.
__________________
cruising is entirely about showing up--in boat shoes.
Bash is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-06-2012, 20:04   #28
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Boston, MA
Boat: Bristol 38.8
Posts: 1,625
Re: Cutter Rig Easier to Singlehand?

A cutter rig is nice for windy conditions because the boat will balance with a double reefed main and the staysail. But the easiest boat to singlehand is a sloop with a self-tacking jib. Am I missing something?
__________________
Curmudgeon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-06-2012, 20:25   #29
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 2,441
Re: Cutter Rig Easier to Singlehand?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Curmudgeon View Post
A cutter rig is nice for windy conditions because the boat will balance with a double reefed main and the staysail. But the easiest boat to singlehand is a sloop with a self-tacking jib. Am I missing something?
You're right to remind us of the title of this thread. I think the disconnect we're seeing is between two schools of thought, relating to different notions of what 'singlehanding' means, which in turn warps the definition of what "easy" signifies.

To some single-handing is the occasional short trip on nice afternoons in sheltered waters, in which case "easy" means effortless.

To others it's crossing oceans and/or sailing in difficult locations alone, in which case "easy" means trouble free.
__________________
Andrew Troup is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-06-2012, 21:18   #30
Moderator
 
Adelie's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: La Ciudad de la Misión Didacus de Alcalá en Alta California, Virreinato de Nueva España
Boat: Cal 20
Posts: 4,621
Re: Cutter Rig Easier to Singlehand?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Curmudgeon View Post
A cutter rig is nice for windy conditions because the boat will balance with a double reefed main and the staysail. But the easiest boat to singlehand is a sloop with a self-tacking jib. Am I missing something?
Why not have the best of both worlds, cutter with a self-tacking staysail and a roller-furling headsail.
__________________

__________________
A house is but a boat so poorly built and so firmly run aground no one would think to try and refloat it.
SailboatData
Adelie is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
cutter

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off




Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 06:03.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.