Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 07-10-2014, 08:40   #1
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: North Carolina
Boat: Permacraft 26 Motorsailer 1979
Posts: 3
Cracked Keel Question -- Watkins 27 1979

Hi Everyone -- brand new member here. I am looking for some insight about what I'm looking at with this boat -- I intend to get survey before purchase, but want a heads up about what could be going on if anyone has ideas. Thank you for your time...

I'm looking at this Watkins 27 1979. I love it. Everything I've researched, being aboard it yesterday, it's perfect for me. However, the keel is cracked (see pics I took yesterday),


https://picasaweb.google.com/MaryeOd...eat=directlink


and leaking water out of the cracks, and is actually squishy around the cracks. The bilge was full (boat is up on blocks).

Is it possible the bilge is leaking through the hull into the keel? Or the hull itself leaking? I'm hopeful that the cracks have simply allowed water to get inbetween the fiberglass and the core of the keel, and is therefore a case of simply grinding/sanding/reglassing which I would have done at the boatyard.

Bilge is being drained, and boat will hopefully dry out fully over next couple of days. I understand that keel is molded with the hull, but does that mean it's all one piece? I know it's not a bolt on keel. From Watkins Owners site:

"One-piece solid hand-laid hull with internal ballast fiberglassed in place.
∑ Hull interior gelcoated
∑ No external iron or steel to rust
∑ Examine otherís keel-to-hull joint. You may see gaps, fillers, rust, cracks. Ours assures fairness."

"Keel: All models are shallow draft with internal ballast except the W36 which has a lead bolt on keel. This means that the keel is molded of fiberglass as a hollow integral part of the hull mold and filled afterwards with ballast. Early models have a lead pre-form inserted into the keel cavity and surrounded by liquid resin."

Anyway, thoughts or ideas? I'm learning all I can (have only sailed a sunfish before and this will be my first bigger sailboat). I'm trying to understand if the keel/hull is one part, or if just molded at same time but still separate.

Thanks in advance for any of your time and info.
Sincerely,
Marye
__________________

__________________
MaryeO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-10-2014, 08:50   #2
Moderator
 
Hudson Force's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Lived aboard & cruised for 45 years,- now on a chair in my walk-in closet.
Boat: Morgan OI 413 1973 - Aythya
Posts: 7,894
Images: 1
Re: Cracked Keel Question -- Watkins 27 1979

You may wish to pay for the survey, but looking at this situation from afar with the photos, I would save the cost of the survey and start looking for another boat. There are many similar boats at good prices without these types of problems!
__________________

__________________
Take care and joy, Aythya crew
Hudson Force is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-10-2014, 09:02   #3
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: North Carolina
Boat: Permacraft 26 Motorsailer 1979
Posts: 3
Re: Cracked Keel Question -- Watkins 27 1979

Thanks Hudson Force, sad answer but what I needed! Anyone else seen this kind of situation?
__________________
MaryeO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-10-2014, 12:38   #4
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: between the devil and the deep blue sea
Boat: a sailing boat
Posts: 17,314
Re: Cracked Keel Question -- Watkins 27 1979

I have seen countless keel damage cases and I can only say that to know you will simply strip the damaged portion of the keel and inspect.

Ask the seller if he minds some angle grinding.

b.
__________________
barnakiel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2014, 09:22   #5
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 399
Re: Cracked Keel Question -- Watkins 27 1979

this is really bad and is symptomatic of other structural problems.

I would pass and look for another boat
__________________
bsurvey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2014, 10:00   #6
Moderator
 
HappyMdRSailor's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2008
Location: North Mississippi
Boat: 48 Wauquiez Pilot Saloon-C22 Chrysler Sunpiper- 19 Potter-Preparing to cruise w/my girl
Posts: 5,980
Re: Cracked Keel Question -- Watkins 27 1979

If you are looking for an expensive can of worms that will give you 100's of hours of structural glass repair experience...

This is the boat to get...

If you wanna have fun and actually go sailing... Find another...
__________________
In the harsh marine environment, something is always in need of repair...

Mai Tai's fix everything...
HappyMdRSailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2014, 11:17   #7
Registered User
 
Cadence's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: SC
Boat: None,build the one shown of glass, had many from 6' to 48'.
Posts: 6,059
Re: Cracked Keel Question -- Watkins 27 1979

Quote:
Originally Posted by MaryeO View Post
Hi Everyone -- brand new member here. I am looking for some insight about what I'm looking at with this boat -- I intend to get survey before purchase, but want a heads up about what could be going on if anyone has ideas. Thank you for your time...

I'm looking at this Watkins 27 1979. I love it. Everything I've researched, being aboard it yesterday, it's perfect for me. However, the keel is cracked (see pics I took yesterday),


https://picasaweb.google.com/MaryeOd...eat=directlink


and leaking water out of the cracks, and is actually squishy around the cracks. The bilge was full (boat is up on blocks).

Is it possible the bilge is leaking through the hull into the keel? Or the hull itself leaking? I'm hopeful that the cracks have simply allowed water to get inbetween the fiberglass and the core of the keel, and is therefore a case of simply grinding/sanding/reglassing which I would have done at the boatyard.

Bilge is being drained, and boat will hopefully dry out fully over next couple of days. I understand that keel is molded with the hull, but does that mean it's all one piece? I know it's not a bolt on keel. From Watkins Owners site:

"One-piece solid hand-laid hull with internal ballast fiberglassed in place.
∑ Hull interior gelcoated
∑ No external iron or steel to rust
∑ Examine otherís keel-to-hull joint. You may see gaps, fillers, rust, cracks. Ours assures fairness."

"Keel: All models are shallow draft with internal ballast except the W36 which has a lead bolt on keel. This means that the keel is molded of fiberglass as a hollow integral part of the hull mold and filled afterwards with ballast. Early models have a lead pre-form inserted into the keel cavity and surrounded by liquid resin."

Anyway, thoughts or ideas? I'm learning all I can (have only sailed a sunfish before and this will be my first bigger sailboat). I'm trying to understand if the keel/hull is one part, or if just molded at same time but still separate.

Thanks in advance for any of your time and info.
Sincerely,
Marye
Fine another boat!
__________________
Cadence is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2014, 11:28   #8
Senior Cruiser
 
Cheechako's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Skagit City, WA
Posts: 19,363
Re: Cracked Keel Question -- Watkins 27 1979

It appears that water is in the ballast. I don't know these boats, if the ballast is in cement then sometimes this happens when water gets in and it freezes. If the bilge is sealed up then maybe the PO hit something and water got in thru the crack. Either way... if it's soft... it's be a problem. if the boat is real cheap, and you like to do work, and the soft part is a small spot or two, you could open the keel up to get the moisture and water out and reglass it. But as mentioned... there are a lot of boats in that size range around cheap.
__________________
"I spent most of my money on Booze, Broads and Boats. The rest I wasted" - Elmore Leonard











Cheechako is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2014, 12:20   #9
Marine Service Provider

Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Ft. Lauderdale
Posts: 784
Re: Cracked Keel Question -- Watkins 27 1979

MaryeO, You should be able to find better information on Watkins 27 web site as there are a large number of boat owners that stay active on that site.

The keel on that boat is part of hull with a weight of steel plate layers and concrete lowered inside. Liquid glass jell is then added to fill remaining space. This is an extremely strong structure. Opening above the keel is covered by fiber glass to form the bilge sump floor. My own experience with the W32 was the bilge pump screwed down to this thin glassed in area with self tapping screws was a missing permitted bilge water to leak into keel fiberglass first layer of hull glass matt and eventually force its way through Jell Coat .

The repair consisted of cutting 10 four inch holes through jell coat and two layers of glass matt. Then installing a pressure regulated at 2 psi air fitting in bilge floor to pressurize drain all possible moisture from a low spot in lower part of keel. Twenty years and eight hull outs latter still no water in keel. There is no way to keep water out of this bilge because of hull rube rail that holds hull to top of boat leaks in rough water, also sump drain for ice box, sink, and shower flows to bilge sump.
__________________
Richard Kollmann is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2014, 14:05   #10
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Homeport: Oswego, NY
Boat: 1993 Sabre 362 #113
Posts: 351
Re: Cracked Keel Question -- Watkins 27 1979

The question to ask of any damage on a boat is how did it happen? If this boat was run hard aground with an inadequate repair, the problems could extend beyond just the keel and up into the structure of the hull aft of the keel and any floor timbers or fiberglass pan.

Best advice, walk away.
__________________
Dave Lochner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2014, 14:12   #11
Marine Service Provider
 
Maine Sail's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Maine
Boat: CS-36T - Cupecoy
Posts: 3,060
Re: Cracked Keel Question -- Watkins 27 1979

It looks like a typical encapsulated keel freeze up. Not uncommon when water gets into the supposed to be sealed encapsulation.. Is this boat in an area where winter temps drop below freezing?? My hunch is a freeze issue, I've seen it a number of times with encapsulated ballast....
__________________
Marine How To Articles
Maine Sail is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2014, 14:28   #12
Senior Cruiser
 
Cheechako's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Skagit City, WA
Posts: 19,363
Re: Cracked Keel Question -- Watkins 27 1979

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Lochner View Post
The question to ask of any damage on a boat is how did it happen? If this boat was run hard aground with an inadequate repair, the problems could extend beyond just the keel and up into the structure of the hull aft of the keel and any floor timbers or fiberglass pan.

Best advice, walk away.
Good point that wasn't brought up. Check the engine bed aft of keel, forward of the keel and galley furniture tabbing for being cracked, repaired or loose.
__________________
"I spent most of my money on Booze, Broads and Boats. The rest I wasted" - Elmore Leonard











Cheechako is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-10-2014, 10:50   #13
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: North Carolina
Boat: Permacraft 26 Motorsailer 1979
Posts: 3
Re: Cracked Keel Question -- Watkins 27 1979

Thanks to all of you so much for these detailed responses and information. I truly appreciate it. Just shopping for a boat is an amazing education and a thrill.
I passed on the boat since a number of you advised, and I had emailed a surveyor pictures as well while requesting a quote for the survey -- twice he told me to pass.

At least I learned that the Watkins 27 exists, and is a well made sailboat, and has a passionate owners group. Someday maybe I will be one. A really nice owner on these boards messaged me with his ideas, and I did almost buy the boat -- he probably could have fixed it in a weekend, it's just over my head at the moment. I'm hopeful this particular Watkins is truly just leaking from a bilge pump screw hole or something similar, and somebody fixes it up, because the rest of the boat seemed pretty good.

So, after all this, I went ahead an bought another boat. It needs plenty of work, but it felt like the kind of work I could do myself and with a helpful brother in law. The kind of work that is mostly just redoing the cabin, and in the process learning all about the electrical/plumbing/construction/maintenance of basic sailboat interiors. It's a story in its own right, so I'll dedicate a new post for the rebirth of an old Permacraft 26, a cool trawler/sailboat hybrid, with a sound hull and running Yanmar -- engine and boat sold to me by a lifelong boat mechanic who had already had the engine out in his shop to go over, reinstalled the engine, inspected the hull, repainted, and started minor improvements. I guess if you're gonna buy an old boat which will undoubtedly need work, getting from a guy who can probably smell the problems from a mile away at this point, whose been in business 40 years, is probably a safer way to go than some other options. Plus, I get all the space of a trawler, but with the beauty of a sailboat, in one package.

Thanks again to all of you. I'm 41 years old, and finally embarking on some lifelong boat dreams, and I appreciate the time and effort you forum members spend on us newbies.

Marye
__________________
MaryeO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2014, 10:27   #14
Moderator
 
HappyMdRSailor's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2008
Location: North Mississippi
Boat: 48 Wauquiez Pilot Saloon-C22 Chrysler Sunpiper- 19 Potter-Preparing to cruise w/my girl
Posts: 5,980
Re: Cracked Keel Question -- Watkins 27 1979

Quote:
Originally Posted by MaryeO View Post
Thanks to all of you so much for these detailed responses and information. I truly appreciate it. Just shopping for a boat is an amazing education and a thrill.
I passed on the boat since a number of you advised, and I had emailed a surveyor pictures as well while requesting a quote for the survey -- twice he told me to pass.

At least I learned that the Watkins 27 exists, and is a well made sailboat, and has a passionate owners group. Someday maybe I will be one. A really nice owner on these boards messaged me with his ideas, and I did almost buy the boat -- he probably could have fixed it in a weekend, it's just over my head at the moment. I'm hopeful this particular Watkins is truly just leaking from a bilge pump screw hole or something similar, and somebody fixes it up, because the rest of the boat seemed pretty good.

So, after all this, I went ahead an bought another boat. It needs plenty of work, but it felt like the kind of work I could do myself and with a helpful brother in law. The kind of work that is mostly just redoing the cabin, and in the process learning all about the electrical/plumbing/construction/maintenance of basic sailboat interiors. It's a story in its own right, so I'll dedicate a new post for the rebirth of an old Permacraft 26, a cool trawler/sailboat hybrid, with a sound hull and running Yanmar -- engine and boat sold to me by a lifelong boat mechanic who had already had the engine out in his shop to go over, reinstalled the engine, inspected the hull, repainted, and started minor improvements. I guess if you're gonna buy an old boat which will undoubtedly need work, getting from a guy who can probably smell the problems from a mile away at this point, whose been in business 40 years, is probably a safer way to go than some other options. Plus, I get all the space of a trawler, but with the beauty of a sailboat, in one package.

Thanks again to all of you. I'm 41 years old, and finally embarking on some lifelong boat dreams, and I appreciate the time and effort you forum members spend on us newbies.

Marye
Congrats Marye!

Sounds like a win for you into the boat life...

A boat bought from a marine mechanic who started from the bilge up is probably your best move ever...

Post a new thread with pics and show us what you're up to with your new baby!
__________________
In the harsh marine environment, something is always in need of repair...

Mai Tai's fix everything...
HappyMdRSailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2014, 10:41   #15
Senior Cruiser
 
Cheechako's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Skagit City, WA
Posts: 19,363
Re: Cracked Keel Question -- Watkins 27 1979

kinda like this one... but with a mast?
__________________

__________________
"I spent most of my money on Booze, Broads and Boats. The rest I wasted" - Elmore Leonard











Cheechako is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
keel

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
For Sale: 1979 27' Watkins sherrypryor Classifieds Archive 1 06-07-2014 08:35
Watkins 27 Rudder Removal munkey906 Construction, Maintenance & Refit 2 16-03-2010 18:11
Leaky Bilge and Cracked Keel RichW Construction, Maintenance & Refit 5 16-11-2009 10:13



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 03:22.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.