Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 19-07-2016, 10:00   #1
Registered User
 
Deep Blue Blues's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 176
Could use some help.

I've narrowed my search down to five boats. And my problem is finding one of each to sail.

Is it ever smart to buy a boat without having sailed it first? Some of these are on the hard and the owners live around the world...

In no particular order..

1985 Tayana 55

1996 Kirie Feeling 546 Prestige

1985 Amel Mango Special or Super Maramu

1986 Beneteau Idylle 15.5

1981-85 Irwin 52

Looking for something safe and roomy that can sail blue waters. Needs to sleep 8. Thanks so much for any and all input.
__________________

__________________
Deep Blue Blues is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-07-2016, 10:19   #2
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Kemah, Texas
Boat: Nauticat 43, Hunter 170
Posts: 56
Re: Could use some help.

"Is it ever smart to buy a boat without having sailed it first?" If you're buying the boat for racing, "No." But, if you're buying the boat for cruising, I would give a qualified, "Maybe." With a little research, you should be able to learn a lot how she will sail (seaworthiness, speed, pointing ability, etc). What is more difficult to glean from reports is how she will point as the wind increases. For example, some shallow draft, full keel boats may not point at all in a gale or higher winds. This is a major detriment in a boat in blue water since it will require use of a sea anchor to go hove to.
__________________

__________________
Ded reckoner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-07-2016, 13:26   #3
Moderator
 
a64pilot's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Albany Ga.
Boat: Island Packet 38
Posts: 13,980
Could use some help.

An Irwin or a Super Maramu?
Pretty wide gap there


Sent from my iPad Pro using Cruisers Sailing Forum
__________________
a64pilot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-07-2016, 14:29   #4
Senior Cruiser
 
skipmac's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: 29 49.16 N 82 25.82 W
Boat: Pearson 422
Posts: 11,658
Re: Could use some help.

I'm not too familiar with the Kirie but from my limited knowledge and research I would order the boats according to quality, construction and seaworthiness:

Tied for 1 & 2, Tayana and Amel

Beneteau - depends a lot on the model. Again I'm not familiar enough with the entire model range to sort the good from the not as good so Beneteau could be in the top tier or the middle, depending. By the way, similar comments about the Irwins although the gap from good to not as good is not as wide as the Beneteau and overall a notch below.

Kirie, somewhere in the middle I think.
__________________
The water is always bluer on the other side of the ocean.
skipmac is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 19-07-2016, 16:19   #5
Senior Cruiser
 
Ann T. Cate's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: aboard, cruising in Australia
Boat: Sayer 46' Solent rig sloop
Posts: 8,105
Re: Could use some help.

Irwins have a reputation for being lightly built.

The Tayana 55 has a large double aft, a pullman berth and a V-berth. I don't think two adults could reasonably be expected to share the pullman, because the chainplate box intrudes so far into the berth. So, not for sleeping 8 at the same time.

Of the boats listed, probably the Amel would be best, but still not meet the sleeps 8 requirement.
__________________
Ann & Jim, U.S. s/v Insatiable II, free at last, in Tasmania, will check in when in internet range
Ann T. Cate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-07-2016, 17:04   #6
Senior Cruiser
 
Jim Cate's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2008
Location: cruising SW Pacific
Boat: Jon Sayer 1-off 46 ft fract rig sloop strip plank in W Red Cedar
Posts: 10,010
Send a message via Skype™ to Jim Cate
Re: Could use some help.

Re the actual question about buying without sailing:

IMO, this is not a good idea at all. While it is true that one can get a pretty good idea about build quality and seaworthyness from others knowledge and experience, I reckon that only by sailing and spending a bit of time on board AT SEA can one determine how YOU like the boat.

You are talking about a major investment, one which will dominate your life if you actually go cruising. The subtle differences between boats are not easily evaluated by other's experiences. I would never consider such a purchase without a serious sea trial as well as a detailed survey... especially if you are not an experienced sailor and cruiser. Never!

Jim
__________________
Jim and Ann
s/v Insatiable II, back in Hobart for slipping and other unpleasant activities.
Jim Cate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-07-2016, 18:45   #7
Registered User
 
HankOnthewater's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: West Australia
Boat: production yacht, suitable for deep blue water ;)
Posts: 205
Re: Could use some help.

Hi Deep Blue

Considering buying without having sailed all the ones on your shortlist? I think I would, but only if it was a recognised design and well known designer and builder.

I don't know the Feeling or the Beneteau.
The Tayana 55 is a very nice boat and and there a few for sale in Australasia.
Tayana 55 for sale - YachtWorld UK
and this one on the East Coast USA
1984 Tayana 55' Tayana Sail New and Used Boats for Sale -
As you can see a complete different rig, and likely will sail differently as well. BTW, I have been on the smaller sister of such boat Tayana 45 Surprise, similar kind of rig, same designer (NA Pieter Beeldsnijder) and of course same manufacturer. I was very impressed with all things on that boat, except state of teak deck.

The Amels are a different kettle of fish, although similar sized, do not sail as nicely as the Tayanas, and "nicely", meaning not as fast, do not point as well, and interior is not as lavish. However you gain some other treats: larger cockpit, extremely good engine access, easy (and little) maintenance, easily sailed ketch rig if you don't mind.
There is a difference in Mango and Super Marumu, and not only price (on average Mangos are $100k cheaper than Super Marumu). I must say I have been on a the latter, but not sailed one.
There are over 50 of such boats for sale world wide. Or you can find one in a marina and ask for an owner to show you around and maybe even for a sail. Most boat owners are proud of their 'ship' and happy to share their knowledge, brag or show off.

And Irwin 52? I looked at one, maybe very suitable to you depending on your requirements. This one is very nice one, and possibly one of the best:
Used Irwin 52 Cutter Ketch Mark 2 for Sale | Yachts For Sale | Yachthub
I am sure if you are interested the owner will take you out.
__________________
Wishing you all sunny skies above, clear water below, gentle winds behind and a safe port ahead,
and when coming this way check http://www.cruiserswiki.org/wiki/Albany,_Australia
HankOnthewater is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-07-2016, 20:33   #8
Registered User
 
Deep Blue Blues's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 176
Re: Could use some help.

Man thank you guys. Experienced opinions are always appreciated.

I was iffy in the build of the Irwin's and the performance of the Feeling 546. I just knew they had excellent layouts. And I'd read the 81-85's irwins are well built. The feelings have nice reviews but no clue on build or performance. Didn't know anything about how they sail. I also can't find one to charter or test. Least trusted.

The idylle has a four inch hull below the waterline. It's very well built. And it's got a great floor plan. But again, no news on seaworthyness or ease of sailing. They don't stay on the market long.

My top three are the Amels and the Tayana. I know they are worthy. The Super maramu would take another year of work but it might be worth it.

Just wish I could sail one. I think if I find a good deal on a mango or tayana I'm just going to inspect and buy regardless of sailing one.

Waiting can wait till I'm dead.
__________________
Deep Blue Blues is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-07-2016, 20:48   #9
Registered User
 
Stu Jackson's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Cowichan Bay, BC (Maple Bay Marina)
Posts: 5,849
Re: Could use some help.

Quote:
Originally Posted by a64pilot View Post
An Irwin or a Super Maramu?
Pretty wide gap there


Sent from my iPad Pro using Cruisers Sailing Forum
So true. A recent post had pretty much this same question, and one of the respondents said: "Gee, sir, you're comparing Yugos and Mercedes."
__________________
Stu Jackson
Catalina 34 #224 (1986) C34IA Secretary
Cowichan Bay, BC, (Maple Bay Marina) SR/FK, M25, Rocna 10 (22#) (NZ model)
Stu Jackson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-07-2016, 20:59   #10
Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Earth
Boat: Amel Super Maramu 53 ft
Posts: 428
Re: Could use some help.

Greetings,

I am not prejudiced ... looked at Tayana 55 like you.

Sleep 8? Depends a lot on your crowd. For me, everybody gets a by on the first day. On day 2, I commence the selection towards the first human sacrifice. On day 3, the first victim is chosen... and on day 4, they are left ashore at the nearest port. ( I am not a real murderer)

Sleep 8? Not for me; I rather have the huge lazarettes to store the cruising gear we enjoy!

Up to you! :-)

BTW, a well kept Amel SM is the better selection over a Mango.
__________________
Eleuthera 2014 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-07-2016, 21:05   #11
Registered User
 
Deep Blue Blues's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 176
Re: Could use some help.

I'll admit the Irwin's affordability had me blinded. But I have to say they must have some quality because they're sold all over the world meaning they can travel.

My dream boat is a maramu but I'll have to get in line. I think the tayana or a mango will be adequate.
__________________
Deep Blue Blues is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-07-2016, 21:06   #12
Registered User
 
Deep Blue Blues's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 176
Re: Could use some help.

Have any other suggestions about boats sold in the southern hemisphere? Can't find many where I'm searching.
__________________
Deep Blue Blues is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-07-2016, 21:19   #13
Registered User
 
HankOnthewater's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: West Australia
Boat: production yacht, suitable for deep blue water ;)
Posts: 205
Re: Could use some help.

Deep Blue,
in my previous post I only referred to 'sailing' not the 'must sleep 8' requirement. It can be done (or not) on Tayana 55 as Ann described, and on an Amel: it has only 2 cabins for sleeping, sleeps only 4 and maybe another child in the aft cabin, one in the sea-berth, but 2 or 3 must sleep in the saloon.......
Maybe a boat with 3 or 4 cabins, and no one sleeping in the saloon might be a happier ship.
Some layouts will work better with 8 persons than others. Therefore, could you take 8 people put on such test sail? .... Most people don't.
Is this requirement (to sleep 8) only for a few occasions? Or do you plan to cross oceans with 8? That certainly would make a difference.

Back to 'sailing' qualities. There are two issues here I think:
Prior to buying, I think it is prudent to test the boat as much as possible, including survey and sea trials, and I think Jim referred tot that. The difficulty to "test" sail such boat is that on most occasions you have to offer money and pay deposit prior to such sea trial.

The second issue is, and I read your first post this way, is that it is hard to make a shortlist of 5 boats, without trying/sailing them, and you are looking for opportunities to do that. And after that shortlist and trying them you would be more qualified in pursuing a few of these boats (or not).

However, as Ded Reckener said, even a single afternoon sailing trip will give only limited information, likely to be fair winds, calm seas.
One need to spend a lot of time on a boat to find how suitable a boat really is and how it is meeting all your requirements: sailing in adverse weather, sleeping space vs living space, boat motion in various seas, ability to prepare meals, handholds in the right place, strong tethering points in the right place, amount of storage space is also important having 8 persons on board, the size of battery bank, fuel and water tanks, (hmmm, 8 persons will go through a lot of water!).

I have sent you also a PM.
__________________
Wishing you all sunny skies above, clear water below, gentle winds behind and a safe port ahead,
and when coming this way check http://www.cruiserswiki.org/wiki/Albany,_Australia
HankOnthewater is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-07-2016, 08:15   #14
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,101
Re: Could use some help.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deep Blue Blues View Post
I've narrowed my search down to five boats. And my problem is finding one of each to sail.

Is it ever smart to buy a boat without having sailed it first? Some of these are on the hard and the owners live around the world...

In no particular order..

1985 Tayana 55

1996 Kirie Feeling 546 Prestige

1985 Amel Mango Special or Super Maramu

1986 Beneteau Idylle 15.5

1981-85 Irwin 52

Looking for something safe and roomy that can sail blue waters. Needs to sleep 8. Thanks so much for any and all input.
Any one of those would make a great cruiser. The Irwin and Tayana are real comfy sailors underway. Beneteau a bit light and bouncy at sea. The others i have no personal knowledge of. Am biased towards a sailboat that has an easy motion, especially when the seas pick up.
__________________
reed1v is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-07-2016, 09:18   #15
Registered User

Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 431
Re: Could use some help.

Quote:
Originally Posted by a64pilot View Post
An Irwin or a Super Maramu?
Pretty wide gap there


Sent from my iPad Pro using Cruisers Sailing Forum
I thought the same thing.

Irwin's don't seem to make good offshore blue water boats, but opinions would vary. They fall into the Morgan, Endeavor category of building thin water condos for the charter fleets in the caribbean until the French boats showed them the door.

Super Maramu is a true offshore boat. Not as fun in the caribbean with the draft and not as comfortable down below with a boat setup for distance short-handed cruising instead of ballroom dancing in the saloon. Easy to shorthand sail and I loved all of the engineering. Helm position is hit and miss. Some days you love it, others you question the logic.

The rest of the list falls between those two and opinions will vary widely.
__________________

__________________
tdoster is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Where could I send some hydraulic oil for some testing? CarstenWL Construction, Maintenance & Refit 12 05-02-2015 11:03
620: Could use some advise corika1 Lagoon Catamarans 6 04-08-2012 09:10
could use some interprotect advice regarding filling voids/cracks with watertitie. albergsailor Monohull Sailboats 0 16-07-2012 08:42
James Island, San Juans - I Could Use Some Help... Hiracer Pacific & South China Sea 9 29-03-2010 12:44
I could use some advice. Maren General Sailing Forum 13 09-01-2009 20:23


Our Communities

Our communities encompass many different hobbies and interests, but each one is built on friendly, intelligent membership.

» More about our Communities

Automotive Communities

Our Automotive communities encompass many different makes and models. From U.S. domestics to European Saloons.

» More about our Automotive Communities

Marine Communities

Our Marine websites focus on Cruising and Sailing Vessels, including forums and the largest cruising Wiki project on the web today.

» More about our Marine Communities


Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 15:12.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.