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Old 20-02-2017, 16:23   #1
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Comfort/stability of 33, 37 and 40' production boats in blue water?

I am looking for my first boat and considering different options. Main cruising ground would be the Canaries with possible mediterranean and caribbean trips.

My initial thought as a novice is to "stay small" (~10m), and I found an interesting, rather roomy 5mt displ. specimen, the elan 340.

However, for virtually the same price there are quite a few 37-40' optionons with the same service time. My question is, is there a significant difference in comfort and stability between 33' and 40' if the weather goes rouge? (Ofcourse w the same draft).
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Old 20-02-2017, 19:03   #2
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Re: Comfort/stability of 33, 37 and 40' production boats in blue water?

All things being equal a smaller boat will not be less seaworthy but the larger boats can make faster passages and have a larger volume to accommodate creature comforts.
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Old 20-02-2017, 19:13   #3
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Re: Comfort/stability of 33, 37 and 40' production boats in blue water?

Given similar designs, the bigger of the two will generally be more comfortable. As it'll have a slower rate of acceleration when acted upon by an external force, such as wind & waves. Think polar moments of inertia here.
The catch being that the loads on all of the gear will be higher since she's bigger, & everything on her will be more expensive. Geometrically so in many cases, since size increases aren't linear, but somewhere between a squared & cubed function.

In terms of living onboard, especially when anchored, extra room is nice to have. Which is one of the big draws of multihulls. Particularly when it comes to deck space, including for things like stowing dinghies & other toys. Or having room to work on gear somewhere other than in the cockpit. Since it's nice to keep one's workshop fiddlings seperate when others onboard are wanting to lounge.

Also, boat's are really tiny when it comes to having room onboard for luxuries, or nice to have items, in addition to necessities. And as boat size goes down, there's geometrically less room for toys, & other items which aren't strictly absolutely necessary. Which is part of why boat size has gone up so much in the last few decades... to keep landsmen (& women) happier in terms of bringing the comforts of home with them. Including having room for a workshop with a vise in the case of some of us

Keep in mind that even for those of us with lots of experience, it's quite common for it to be an unpleasant event whenever it's time to pay for upkeep & outfitting one's boat. Again, geometrically more so, the larger the boat. Which, there's a world of difference between 33' & 40'. I'd say one's easily double the other, but ask around. And some onboard tasks that you can do by brute force, solo on a 33'er, like raising the anchor sans windlass, are out of the question on a bigger boat.

Ah, & boat "sizes" can be deceiving, or misleading. In that quite a number of "small" boats aren't, & vice versa. For example, a Westsail 32 is actually about 40' long when you count her bowsprit & boomkin. And she weighs as much or more than most modern 40'ers. The same is true of the Pardey's boats. Their 30'er was about 40' long, counting her sprit & boomkin, & she weighed in at 9T.

Similar things are true in reverse. You can have a 40'er that weighs 5T, which, it has a rig more akin to that found on a 35' boat. Ditto her other systems, including ground tackle, etc.
So in the end, many experienced folks will tell you that you buy a boat by the pound, as much or more than by any other measurement. Including many well travelled, & well published sailors. Thus after doing some studying on boat designs, you may find this to be true too. And a tool to help you with comparing boats is www.sailboatdata.com which has the stat's & spec's on hundreds of boat designs. Including displacement, length, beam, sail area, & interior layout sketches.
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Old 21-02-2017, 01:53   #4
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Re: Comfort/stability of 33, 37 and 40' production boats in blue water?

GTom
I hope you don't plan to 'do' the Med or cross the ditch straight up. Both areas can be quite perilous at times. I hope you do many overnighters in calmish seas before you even consider setting out on these ventures. To sail for 30 days without stopping needs skill and preparation. These are not sailing fields for learners.
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Old 21-02-2017, 03:25   #5
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Re: Comfort/stability of 33, 37 and 40' production boats in blue water?

I think uncivallised response is Fantastic thank you for that, and I think the owner of the thread is looking long term, but how much of a difference are you going to feel bouncing those waves between a 35 to 43 footer is it going to be a that much greater bouncing around effect ???

Thanks also intrested Dave
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Old 21-02-2017, 04:02   #6
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pirate Re: Comfort/stability of 33, 37 and 40' production boats in blue water?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTom View Post
I am looking for my first boat and considering different options. Main cruising ground would be the Canaries with possible mediterranean and caribbean trips.

My initial thought as a novice is to "stay small" (~10m), and I found an interesting, rather roomy 5mt displ. specimen, the elan 340.

However, for virtually the same price there are quite a few 37-40' optionons with the same service time. My question is, is there a significant difference in comfort and stability between 33' and 40' if the weather goes rouge? (Ofcourse w the same draft).
Hi GTom.. it would be easier to advise/comment if you listed a few of your other options.. the Elan340 is a decent enough craft for what you want however it is of the round shallow bilge type designed mainly for coastal cruising as opposed to voyaging.
This is not anything to do with its seaworthiness but more to do with storage capacity.. tankage for fuel and water, food, clothing, spares and all the bits and bobs needed for long voyages.
Now if like me your a nibbler and physically capable/comfortable with fasting.. are happy with a 2.5litre solar shower twice a week on a 3 week Atlantic crossing with just 200litres there is no problem.. I did 47days solo with just 180litres on a Bene 321..
However from what I've seen since joining CF folks today are just are not capable or prepared to undergo this kind of 'Hardship'..
Now add 1 or 2 crew to the above .. put storage capacity up there alongside seaworthiness.
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Old 21-02-2017, 05:25   #7
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Re: Comfort/stability of 33, 37 and 40' production boats in blue water?

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Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED View Post
Given similar designs, the bigger of the two will generally be more comfortable. As it'll have a slower rate of acceleration when acted upon by an external force, such as wind & waves. Think polar moments of inertia here.
The catch being that the loads on all of the gear will be higher since she's bigger, & everything on her will be more expensive. Geometrically so in many cases, since size increases aren't linear, but somewhere between a squared & cubed function. ...
Thanks for the many valuable thoughts! True, for motion comfort (which I am mostly interested in) i should have asked in displacement terms, e.g. 5 vs 6T boats. Regarding costs and workload, 40' is I think too much for me. So far I looked at 33' production boats (Jeanneau's, Beneteau's) - which one can buy "off the shelf" at the various ad-sites - but am a bit worried how these handle the atlantic waves.

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GTom
I hope you don't plan to 'do' the Med or cross the ditch straight up.
By no means . In the first 3-4 years I would explore daysailing the closer canaries neighbourhood then make a west-> east -> (hopefully by then peaceful) south Med round and decide where further. I have around 6-8 weeks total per year incl. long weekends, things must happen gradually. I also planned the actual boat purchase for next year, not tomorrow, I have a lot of research, chartering interesting models and forum whining to do .

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Originally Posted by inet-projects View Post
I think uncivallised response is Fantastic thank you for that, and I think the owner of the thread is looking long term, but how much of a difference are you going to feel bouncing those waves between a 35 to 43 footer is it going to be a that much greater bouncing around effect ???
Yepp, I think the bureaucracy of buying a boat is enough trouble to weather once in 10 years - planning for around 10 years if not longer. One who sailed different sizes could share us how much bouncier is e.g. a small Bene 31 vs a heavy full-keel 40'-er just to mark the extremes of my scale.

I already collected many points for the purchase:
#1: budget - should be <60k€
#2: condition - recently refitted, up-to-date and reliable electronics
#3: performance - I'd go with speedier designs. For me, sailing is still means of travel, getting from one place to another in 4 days instead of 5 has value for me (->> fin-keel+spade rudder?)
#4: motion comfort and reliability if I am caught in a storm, when I got to ocean passages.
#5: enough room for 4 people+provisions on a transatlantic passage.

Quote:
Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post
Hi GTom.. it would be easier to advise/comment if you listed a few of your other options.. the Elan340 is a decent enough craft for what you want however it is of the round shallow bilge type designed mainly for coastal cruising as opposed to voyaging.
Thanks Boatman, working on the list . The Elan itself is shallow but it's is quite deep keel compensates. The difficult thing is that I also want a bit of speed, which is a more difficult thing with full-keel. Speaking of speed and storage room, adding some length helps both.
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Old 21-02-2017, 05:55   #8
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pirate Re: Comfort/stability of 33, 37 and 40' production boats in blue water?

GTom.. there are fin keel boats out there with better storage than the types your looking at.. look for boats with the water tank under the V berth and storage space under the saloon berths.. lots of useful space is wasted by many builders opting for the Cheap Install midship tanks leaving difficult to access and manage storage space up front under the V.
An example is Westerly's (old boats I know), I had a Longbow 31 which had double the space for organised storage in flat easy to get to areas than I had in my Bene 321 and 331.. and she sailed as fast as both and slammed less.
I'm not advocating full keel.. just spread your net wider than the cheapo production line plastic fantastic's.. the sailor makes the boat.. not Vicky Verky..
To be honest I'd do some searching on Apollo Duck and consider boats like these well within your budget and which are much more suited to your desires for long cruises round the Med and Transats.
Moody 34 for sale UK, Moody boats for sale, Moody used boat sales, Moody Sailing Yachts For Sale MOODY 34 - Apollo Duck

But that's just my 00000.0005cents.

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Old 21-02-2017, 06:02   #9
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Re: Comfort/stability of 33, 37 and 40' production boats in blue water?

The difference between a 33 footer and a 40 footer of the same type is vast.
Vastly more comfortable.
Vastly bigger.
Vastly better.
Vastly more sea worthy.
Vastly less scary in a big sea.

Get the biggest boat you can afford.

I wouldn't cross in a 33 footer if my life depended on it. Oops it does.


Mark
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Old 21-02-2017, 06:33   #10
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Re: Comfort/stability of 33, 37 and 40' production boats in blue water?

"Now if like me your a nibbler and physically capable/comfortable with fasting.. are happy with a 2.5litre solar shower twice a week on a 3 week Atlantic crossing with just 200litres there is no problem.. I did 47days solo with just 180litres on a Bene 321..
However from what I've seen since joining CF folks today are just are not capable or prepared to undergo this kind of 'Hardship'.. " Boatman61


This, I believe, is the choice one makes when choosing a boat based upon LOA and cargo capacity. It is certainly the trend, today, for larger boats usually chosen to satisfy/placate the need to create a house on the water. But, with this reality comes more physical power to sail the vessel safely in all conditions: sail handling, anchoring, as well as greater maintenance requirements and costs. I believe the concept of sailing/cruising has changed for most as well as the tolerance for perceived "hardships" underway as B mentions above. A smaller, well-found boat is, in my opinion, always the better choice . . . unless ,of course, you're sailing with the stereotypical reluctant wife who cracks the proverbial whip at any small incovenience that destroys her illusion of a condo on the water. What a difference a day makes! Good luck and safe sailing.
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Old 21-02-2017, 07:05   #11
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Re: Comfort/stability of 33, 37 and 40' production boats in blue water?

"However from what I've seen..... folks today are just are not capable or prepared to undergo this kind of 'Hardship'..."
as so often I couldn't agree more with you!
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Old 21-02-2017, 08:20   #12
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Re: Comfort/stability of 33, 37 and 40' production boats in blue water?

I'm sure that there are plenty of "lists" out there, but when you are looking for a starting point, lists like these can be helpful.

9 Best Used Boats for 2017 | Cruising World
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Old 21-02-2017, 08:38   #13
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Re: Comfort/stability of 33, 37 and 40' production boats in blue water?

Quote:
Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post
look for boats with the water tank under the V berth and storage space under the saloon berths..
Point taken, that brought the elan piece to my list originally (at least one review praised tank placements)

Quote:
To be honest I'd do some searching on Apollo Duck and consider boats like these well within your budget and which are much more suited to your desires for long cruises round the Med and Transats.
Moody 34 for sale UK, Moody boats for sale, Moody used boat sales, Moody Sailing Yachts For Sale MOODY 34 - Apollo Duck
I am a bit reluctant to buy a 20+years old fiberglass boat, shouldn't fiberglass decompose? (osmosis, etc)

Quote:
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Get the biggest boat you can afford.
That's the tricky question: one could get a huge boat for 50k$, but it turns out that all electronics are obsolete, and the marina bill you are presented at the beginning of the month will cut your beer kitty quite significantly. Looking at the running costs, I'd be comfy with 35-37'.
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Old 21-02-2017, 08:54   #14
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Re: Comfort/stability of 33, 37 and 40' production boats in blue water?

Of all the construction methods, solid fiberglass is the most long lived, & low maintenance. There are still glass boats built in the 60's out there sailing. And once a boat gets to be 5-10yrs old, the quality of the care she's recieved is generally the largest factor in determining what kind of shape she's in. Especially with regards to all of her systems, except her electronics.

The general rule on electronics is that when shopping for boats, you don't place a lot of fiscal value on what a boat does or doesn't have. Since unless they're brand new, they'll be somewhat dated given advances in tech. And the marine environment is hard enough on them so that their lifespan isn't what one would call long. At least not reliably. Thus it's best to plan as though you'll be refitting a lot of them, though in practice it's often best to keep everything on a boat as is for a while, until you've sailed her a bit. Not just her electronics, but most of her systems.
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Old 21-02-2017, 09:09   #15
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Re: Comfort/stability of 33, 37 and 40' production boats in blue water?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTom View Post
I am looking for my first boat and considering different options. Main cruising ground would be the Canaries with possible mediterranean and caribbean trips.

My initial thought as a novice is to "stay small" (~10m), and I found an interesting, rather roomy 5mt displ. specimen, the elan 340.

However, for virtually the same price there are quite a few 37-40' optionons with the same service time. My question is, is there a significant difference in comfort and stability between 33' and 40' if the weather goes rouge? (Ofcourse w the same draft).
When the price is constant and the LOA differs considerably, expect major differences in quality and/or upkeep.

We did all you want to do and more in a 26' boat. Thus your 33' to 40' bracket will contain countless boats that fit the job VERY WELL.

I suggest you simply pick out a boat that matches your personality - a boat that not just lets you sail in the Canaries with Caribbean and Med stunts but actually fuels your dream, your illusions and your travel itch.

A toy you truly desire and deserve.

It is all too easy to buy a large boat of poor quality in the Canaries and then spend the rest of your online time explaining to others why you can't go sailing.

Mind you will be torn between the marina styled boat and the seagoing boat from the very start: some boats have huge cockpits and very light interiors and these offer huge advantages when docked or anchored. They are built light and are 'cheap' (per weight / LOA) compared to the seagoing type. The seagoing boat may suck at the dock and may be the most rolly one at anchor ...

Explore, explore, explore ... then get one that you actually love. If looking at your boat you imagine yourself doing the things you truly really want to do next, then this is the right one.

Do not get hung up on LOA. Bigger is safer all other things equal. But Canaries to the Med and Caribbean even a small boat is marginally safe enough to play with. And the big and 'safe' ones do sink here now and then too (just look at that poor Clyde Challenger last week).

Last thing, mind Canaries suck in the sailing terms. You may be happier based in the Med and sailing out to the Canaries and across the pond from there.

Big hug (from the Canaries)
b.
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