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Old 01-07-2012, 20:42   #1
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Coastal Cruising Boat Selection Help

We have been building our sailing kitty and over the past year, honed in on what we need as opposed to what we want. What we need the most is to make a decision and start sailing! I would appreciate any comments, advice or suggestions!

The 5 Year Plan - Weekend sailing around the Gulf Coast Barrier Islands with my wife, our two boys (currently 11 & 13) and the occasional friends. 75% of the time it will just be the 4 of us.

The 5+ Year Plan - Extended trips from the Gulf Coast through the Keys, the Bahamas, the Exumas and the BVI's and back with my wife for 4-6 months at a time during the winter. Extended trips up the Tenn Tom Waterway during the summer.

Boats currently being considered:
  1. 1996 Hunter 29.5
  2. 1987 Island Packet 27
  3. 1983 Pearson 303

The Hunter appears to be a bit more conducive to accommodate larger groups of family & friends. But I am unsure if the Hunter is really the boat we want when it comes time to sail to the BVI's. I worry about the lack of back stays and the open sugar scoop. Of course the kids love the open sugar scoop and large cockpit. Also, this boat is at the higher end of our budget and would limit our ability to buy any additional toys such as a dink & kayaks.

The Island Packet 27 seems more appropriate for the 5+ Year Plan but not exactly the boat that would comfortably accommodate 6+ people for an extended weekend. I really like the 3'8" draft and the 38'6" bridge clearance. The current price tag however is a bit much for our budget and would completely wipe out the sailing kitty.

The Pearson seems to be a good fit and the price tag is within our reach. Quite roomy below and what appears to be adequate space in the cockpit. While every 1983 Pearson 303 that I have seen thus far has the mainsheet traveler in the cockpit, this one is on the cabin roof. I am unsure if this is standard or a modification made by a previous owner. While I certainly prefer it on the roof, I worry about the integrity of such modifications made by someone less than qualified.

While safety is obviously my major concern, comfort is a close 2nd. I could never be comfortable unless I know my family and friends are safe.

Being a 1st time buyer, there are many things that have me confused. Aside from the obvious boat selection decision process, I am intrigued mostly with the actual offer process. I am having the toughest time committing to make an offer on a boat when the best I can do is climb aboard.

It goes against my nature and my logic to make an offer, put up a deposit & pay for a survey without even the possibility of a test ride. What happens if we go through the process and, during the sea trial, structural problems are discovered and/or we decide we don't like the boat? This just seems illogical! I understand sellers cant afford test rides for every tire kicker and I am sure there is a certain amount of liability/risk but it would seem there should be a happy medium. Is it unheard of to ask for a pre-offer test ride? Perhaps I am naive but I would sure feel better.

At this point, my wife and I agree on one thing - we want the buying process to be over. I am certain we are going to make an offer within the next two weeks and would greatly appreciate any help, guidance and suggestions with the above or alternate boats.

Thanks in advance!

Excited but exhausted,

Bob
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Old 01-07-2012, 21:05   #2
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Re: Coastal Cruising Boat Selection Help

You don't say what your budget might be, but 27-30 feet seems on the smallish side for extended cruising with a family of 4 or more friends, for longer than a week or few.

Extended cruising should feel like home, not like camping on the water. Camping on the water may be OK for some, but the majority of boats we've met that started that way never achieved their goals for more cruising later. Personally I'd look at a bit older but larger boat. Pearson's are great boats, we've cruised with lots of older Pearsons mid 30' range.

On the other hand, we had a great time anchored in Portobello Panama with a 27' boat with a family, mom & dad & two 8-10 year old boys who were circumnavigating -- left from England 2 years earlier -- everyone aboard "complained" that the boat was great when they started, but now that the boys were growing it was becoming a bit cramped.

Good luck! And enjoy! But don't rush to buy a boat -- you have lots of time! We "tried out" several boats we thought we might like -- including a Hunter and an Island Packet via charter -- try Southwest Florida Yacht Charters out of Charlotte Harbor for both a smaller Island Packet and a smaller Hunter. They wouldn't be identical, but they'd be similar. And you can have a blast on a "vacation" and see how it goes for living aboard before you take the plunge and actually buy the boat.

Just our thoughts ...
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Old 01-07-2012, 21:10   #3
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Re: Coastal Cruising Boat Selection Help

Hey Bob, where ya from? If you're planning on cruising the gulf islands you might be near us!

I second the feedback above of posting a sort of price range so people can give good advice for you.
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Old 01-07-2012, 22:03   #4
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Re: Coastal Cruising Boat Selection Help

We actually started this process over a year ago and thought the 40'-45' range would be preferable. During the past year, we have gone from making sure we were prepared for every possible situation and group combination to buying something that will accommodate our needs 90% of the time. The mantra went from 'buy the biggest boat we can afford' to 'buy the boat that best serves what we intend to do the most often.'

Again, safety is my main concern with comfort a close 2nd. Whatever we get, I must have the confidence my wife will be able to single hand. You never know what is going to happen and I cant put my family in an uncompromising position.

Currently, the budget is capped at $30K. Of course, the less we spend now, the more we have for toys and accessories.

I suspect that 75% of the time over the next 5 years, it will be Amy, the boys and myself for a 2-3 day trip out to the Gulf Coast Barrier Islands. Occasionally we may have an additional kid or perhaps another adult couple but again, it would be for just a weekend.

In 5-7 years, the boys go off to college and Amy & I will be empty nesters. At this point, it will just be the two of us on extended trips.

We actually homeschool our children and we have considered the remote possibility of taking a 6-12 month sabbatical with the kids and work our way around the keys, down the exumas, through the upper & lower Antilles down to Grenada possibly Trinidad. The current economic environment may keep this just that - a remote possibility.

Yeah, theoretically, we have plenty of time. The kids, on the other hand, are a captive audience for a few more years! It wont be long until I hear, sure Dad, I would love to spend time with you if only I could find the time! I would love to convince myself we will sail together as a family for the rest of our lives but that really would be naive!

Winterlude, I hope this gives you a bit more information.

Target, we are in Slidell. Amy has been following your Blog for a while now.

Thanks for the quick responses!

B
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Old 01-07-2012, 22:19   #5
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Re: Coastal Cruising Boat Selection Help

First let me say that every family relates to travel and personal space differently but I would also think that 30' would be on the very lower end for a couple with 2 teenage boys. On the other hand, I met 2 couples from Germany that had sailed from Europe to the Caribbean and were quite happy on a 27'.

As far as handling single handed by either partner, I don't personally see much difference between 30' and 36' while you can get a LOT more room in that extra 6'. On example the Morgan OI 36. Not the best sailing boat in the world but reasonably well built and I would not hesitate to take one down island, and in fact have done so. Has a private aft cabin with main and fore peak.

For your sailing area most production boats would be safe and sea worthy. You will never be more than a day away from a harbor anyway. Just pay a little attention to the weather but you would want to do that even if you were sailing in a steel barge.

The Pearson would be a good choice but then I may be prejudiced.
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Old 02-07-2012, 15:48   #6
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Re: Coastal Cruising Boat Selection Help

With those sorts of requirements/options it seems like you have a whole big wide world open to you. I wouldn't try to put a list of boats together you're trying to stick to but rather just watch what is coming up on the market around you. If you're not doing any ocean crossings most boats out there will do okay. We see Hunters and Catalinas out there doing it.

We did take a look a few Pearson's and a Hunter before we bought Sundowner. We liked how big and spacious they felt inside, but that was just through the eyes of a couple, not a family.

If you guys want to come sailing sometime let us know!
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Old 02-07-2012, 17:31   #7
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Re: Coastal Cruising Boat Selection Help

You need a minimum of 3 berths in the main cabin, 1 for each off-watch person plus a place to sit for the person on watch. When sailing overnight the v-berth will be untenable, too bouncy.

Given that the kids will likely have permanent berths there, they need to be quarter-berths or pilot berths that do not convert to other uses during the day.

A settee (longitudinal seat) that has to be converted is fine for the parents who can hot-bunk through the night and will still have private space in the v-berth when at anchor or in calm sailing conditions.

A dinette (transverse seats, or U-shaped) will be more involved to convert nightly when underway and probably a source of long-term frustration unless a quick conversion system is worked out.

Guests will probably be aboard less than 10% (less than 5% probably) most likely so the occasional cramming to get them in won't be bad unless you try to do an overnight passage.

The following boats would fit the bill, be in the 33-36' range and are currently available for $15-30K.

MORGAN 33 O/I sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com
Best layout with no extra sea berths, shoal draft, well built for charter trade, rather short on sail area.

PEARSON 10M sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com
Most number of sea berths, rather deep.

CAL 36 sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com
More moderate draft but not shoal draft, wonderful sailing performance, wonderful deck space.

CAL CRUISING 36 sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com
Similar to standard Cal36 above, but parents have to convert a dinette nightly for off-watch. Increased cabin volume at expense of deck space.
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Old 03-07-2012, 19:56   #8
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Re: Coastal Cruising Boat Selection Help

Thanks for all the comments and suggestions!

After a year of searching, we want this to be over so we can start sailing! Over the past year, we have looked at Colombia's, Tartan's, Freedom's, Privilege's, Endeavour's, Irwin's, Gulfstar's, Beneteau's, Morgan's, Newport's, Pearson's, Hunter's, Catalina's, Island Packets, Cheoy Lee, Formosa, IP's, C&C, CS, CT and OMG can it get anymore complicated!!!!

We have gone from 46' to 41' to 37' to 31' to 29' to 27'. Each step of the way, we have considered safety, storage space, living space, deck space, cockpit space, freeboard height, mast height, sail area, furling or non furling main sail, keel depth, keel type, rudder type, AC, Refrigeration, Ice Box, Generator, engine size, engine type, fuel type (ok, never considered anything other than diesel) and OMG can it get anymore complicated!!!!

Last year, after meeting the Home Schooled Crew of the 'Diamond' on their return trip from a 6 month sabbatical through the Bahamas and the Exumas, Amy finally gave me her blessing to move forward with the 'process'. In retrospect, perhaps letting her climb aboard the Diamond, a 1996 Beneteau 461, wasnt the best idea as this quite possibly set the bar a bit high! (if you are reading, thanks a lot, Craig! ) A beautiful boat, plenty of room, nice sugarscoop but a price that was a bit out of our budget....

A trip to the bank, a dose of reality and we were back on track!

Anyway, I think the 30' is a bit small for the 5+ year plan and possibly a bit small for the 5 year plan. There is, however, an alternate 5+ year plan that includes buying the affordable 30' Pearson now, learning the how to's, the don't do's, what is a necessity, luxury or an impossibility and, in 5 years, give the Pearson to the boys and find our next 'best' boat for the 5+ year plan.

It may prove the 30' is fine for Amy & I. Personally, I would like to move back to the 36' to 40' range. I am encouraged by 'skipmac's' comments about the trade off between handling and more space. We are going to look at all 3 of these boats again this weekend (the agent has been both patient and accommodating!) and possibly a couple other larger boats as well. There happens to be a 1983 38' Endeavor and a 1983 38' Morgan 384 we may be able to crawl through - both a bit out of our current price range but possibly negotiable???

As we realized the Beneteau 461 was too expensive and the Morgan 41' O/I could prove to be tough to single hand, we came across the Hunter with its large rounded cockpit, corner seating and convenient sugarscoop. Below it was equally inviting and spacious providing room for all of us and our friends.

It wasn't until we started researching the Hunter that we realized there weren't any back stays, the Arch was prone to leaking and the sugar scoop could actually be a real problem with following seas. Upon further research we discovered the fin or bulb keel, although really neat, didnt offer any protection for the prop or rudder as the full keel and skeg rudder would.

I did come across a couple of threads that basically threw the BS card at the negative comments and indicated these posters were not necessarily off target but rather highly critical of production boats in general. Not wanting to rationalize but if these boats are indeed so dangerous & high maintenance, why are there so many of them? I wish someone would simply say it really isn't a safe boat and then I could eliminate it from the list!

Right now, the priority list is as follows:
  1. Safety
  2. Ease of Handling
  3. Price
  4. Cockpit Size
  5. Berth Quantity & Size
  6. Storage Capacity
  7. Air Conditioning

Thanks again for all of the comments and advice to date! Please keep them coming!

Target - careful what you wish for! We might just take you up on the offer!
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Old 03-07-2012, 20:13   #9
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Re: Coastal Cruising Boat Selection Help

This is a bit self-serving, but have you considered a Grampian 34 (yes, I have one for sale)? Large volume, solid build, lots of space, a full aft cabin, along with a separate V and main salon. Ketch rig, centre cockpit makes it easy to handle. Modified fin (5' draft0) with skeg-hung rudder with moderate bilges makes her a decent sailor.

Oh, and they can be had for pretty cheap these days.

Whatever you decide on, I agree with the others that 30' is going to get pretty cramped for an extended cruise with that many people. Not that you can't do it -- many have. But you better really like each other ... a lot .
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Old 04-07-2012, 04:07   #10
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Re: Coastal Cruising Boat Selection Help

Buy the best condition boat you can find for your budget, whatever make / model - and around the 30' mark (as you have identified, plusses and minuses to every boat - including bigger vs smaller).....as a first boat I would stick to mainstream boats.

To be honest, unless you go really out of the box (a double ended steel boat made in 1936 - with 3 masts!) then pretty much anything will do the 5 year job. I would worry about the 5+ year plan for later, odds are strong that your ideas will have changed by then anyway. Whatever you buy could do that job also - whether you will want to being a seperate matter, and which you won't know until later on whatever boat you buy.

Safety? well, that mostly down to the Skipper (both by being able to handle what happens and simply from not being "there" in the first place!), you will be very unlikely to find a boat that is inherently unsafe, that will either be from condition or from Skipper. So, easy fixes - buy something that is in sound condition and learn (and wife do the same) about being a Skipper, and for that (in addition to courses / exams as a headstart) no substitute for hands on experiance, start with "baby steps" and coupled with an ounce of common sense you will be fine.....learning curve as quick or slow as you like / feel comfortable with.
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Old 04-07-2012, 04:16   #11
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Re: Coastal Cruising Boat Selection Help

Yeah, that "No Test Drive" rule is a puzzle / frustrating - I am sure you can understand why folks don't want to offer free days out to folks who may have no interest in buying, but nonetheless IMO a blanket "no" is a bit short sighted. Imagine buying a car (or anything else?) on that basis!

In practice what you will probably have to do is settle on boat time on similar vessels to get an idea of what to expect (if you don't have that already). In any event, if you don't have a lot of experiance of similar vessels, then probably won't be able to tell how good the boat is in comparison to others!..............and then simply accept that you will be taking a punt until the SeaTrial (odds are that will be after signing a contract), at which point if you simply don't like the boat then might need some help from your Surveyor in rejecting the boat as likely that simply "I don't like it" won't count as a valid reason to back out of the deal. The good news is that usually things that a Surveyor can dig up if needed, at least to raise question marks.
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Old 04-07-2012, 06:04   #12
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Re: Coastal Cruising Boat Selection Help

Quote:
Originally Posted by Close_Quarters View Post
The 5+ Year Plan - Extended trips from the Gulf Coast through the Keys, the Bahamas, the Exumas and the BVI's and back with my wife for 4-6 months at a time during the winter. Extended trips up the Tenn Tom Waterway during the summer.
Hi Bob, as noted, pretty much any well-found boat will do for what you plan. I really do think you're going to find most boats under 30' to be pretty cramped for four people, but it's certainly possible to make it work.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Close_Quarters View Post
I am having the toughest time committing to make an offer on a boat when the best I can do is climb aboard ... It goes against my nature and my logic to make an offer, put up a deposit & pay for a survey without even the possibility of a test ride. What happens if we go through the process and, during the sea trial, structural problems are discovered and/or we decide we don't like the boat?
The standard buying process typically goes like this:
Step #1. Buyer researches market to narrow down type of boat. This is where you match your wants, needs and budget, to come up with possible candidates.

Step #2. Locate possible boats. Contact seller or selling broker. Get as much info as you can. Don't be shy here. Ask for everything, including past surveys. If you don't like the answers, walk away.

Step #3. Go look at the boat, or have a trusted agent do it for you. Conduct your own survey. Spend some serious time poking and prodding. Dig into the bilges, take a hard look at chainplates and mast steps, examine the hull and deck for any problems. If you're not experienced with boats, there are many good checklists and books you can use to guide you.

Step #4. If you still like what you see, make an offer. The offer will always be contingent on a satisfactory survey and a sea trial. Once an offer is accepted, buyer typically provides 10% as a down payment. This is kept in trust (either formally through an escrow or lawyer account, or perhaps as a post-dated cheque).

Step #5. Have the boat surveyed by a skilled surveyor who is working for you. Surveying is an unregulated profession, so take time to find one that you trust.

Step #6. Depending on the survey results you can either carry on with the purchase, renegotiate, or walk away.

Step #7. Sea trial. This is typically the final step. It comes after all inspections and surveys are complete. The main purpose is to confirm what you already know about the boat. It's not typically used to discover whether you like that kind of boat.

Step #8. Complete the transaction with exchange of money and ownership docs.
All this being said, there is nothing written in stone here. If want to take the boat out for a ride before making an offer, then ask. My experience is that if there is trust and good will on both sides, then anything is possible.
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Old 04-07-2012, 08:17   #13
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Re: Coastal Cruising Boat Selection Help

You need a bigger boat......unless you refrain from looking at buying a boat for your friends and extended family, you need to look at buying for you and your direct family. It is nice to think of friends and rellos but unless you have a boat much bigger than 40' it wont work other than day trips. The size boats you are looking at are nice for two, tough for four on any time more than a weekend.
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Old 04-07-2012, 08:38   #14
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Re: Coastal Cruising Boat Selection Help

Very good advice here. You actually may be overthinking this. Your idea about biting the bullet and buying the Pearson is a pretty good one. You'll get to learn all sorts of things about the "shopping list" of "issues" involved with a boat.

This may help some, too: Boat Inspection Trip Tips - SailboatOwners.com

As far as budget, many have reported that an INITIAL budget is just that and have spent the boat-buy budget of 50 to 100% MORE in getting the boat suitable for your own use. If you use the information in the link you can start to get a good idea of what it is you're looking at and looking for.

An older boat in good to great condition is much better than a newer one in poor condition.

Don't let the size get to you, rather the MOST important thing I have found with boats is ACCESS, ACCESS, ACCESS to systems, wiring, piping batteries and the engine.

Here's my favorite bit of advice: See how easy it is to find and use the oil dipstick on the engine. If it's not easy, then wonder to yourself how often the previous owners actually checked the oil (both condition and level). My boat is soooo easy I feel guilty if I don't! One charter boat forced us to tear apart the aft cabin just to even see the end of the dipstick, let alone get to it and read it. (It was a Beneteau 35, older, I admit, but the issue remains).

There is also the matter of SUPPORT. If you find a boat, Google around and find out if it has an active owners group. Most do, but some groups are very, very good. The advantage of this is that you don't have to reinvent the wheel, 'cuz upgrades and repairs have already been done and chronicled. Many are not necessarily boat-specific, like electrical systems, but some are.

Good luck, happy hunting.
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Old 04-07-2012, 08:54   #15
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Re: Coastal Cruising Boat Selection Help

Quote:
Originally Posted by Close_Quarters View Post

The 5 Year Plan - Weekend sailing around the Gulf Coast Barrier Islands with my wife, our two boys (currently 11 & 13) and the occasional friends. 75% of the time it will just be the 4 of us.

The 5+ Year Plan - Extended trips from the Gulf Coast through the Keys, the Bahamas, the Exumas and the BVI's and back with my wife for 4-6 months at a time during the winter. Extended trips up the Tenn Tom Waterway during the summer.
I think the first thing you need to decide is if you desire the same boat for both of those needs or if you wish to trade up for the 5+ year plan.

I own a Hunter 30 which I've taken on two 3-month cruises to the Bahamas. For the price, it suited it's needs well. However, I can't imagine having 4 on board regularly with guests on top of that as you plan. Also, while it's a boat I'd be happy to cruise through the Bahamas, that's the limit of what I'd personally choose to do with it.

I also just finished a week in the BVIs with a friend and his two kids (High School - College) on my Beneteau 32.2. Having four on board was much more comfortable than it would have been on the Hunter due to the fact it's easier for people to get past each other - something to consider in the boats you are looking at. However, I still can't imagine doing cruises for several months with that many on board, let alone sometimes 6.

Just my two cents worth.
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