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Old 25-04-2016, 10:00   #16
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Re: Circumnavigation/blue water cruising dreams

Best advice we were given many decades ago was to Just Do It. You learn a lot by sailing a lot. Small boat cruising is somewhat an acquired taste, and the only way you will find out if you really like it is to try it. Coastal hopping a good way to start out. As others have said, keep it real simple. Might also join a cruising club. They can be a big, big help.
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Old 25-04-2016, 10:15   #17
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Re: Circumnavigation/blue water cruising dreams

Good luck man! Nothin I can really add to these excellent posts. Barnakiel's post was like a walk down memory lane..good, bad, ugly With any luck, you'll get very acquainted with at least one boatyard along the way.

The pursuit is 100% worthwhile.
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Old 25-04-2016, 17:05   #18
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Re: Circumnavigation/blue water cruising dreams

Good morning, everyone, or day, or evening.... ;-)

I just thought I'd share. The boat Jim and I left on for cruising had only 50 gallons water capacity, about 189 liters. Some of the passages were over 3 weeks. We carried a 20 l. water jug, securely lashed in the cockpit. We never needed it, we learned to be miserly with water use. Jim also plumbed salt water to the galley sink, and I used salt water and detergent to wash the dishes, and a tiny fresh water rinse. Other people, did all the process with salt water, and dried the dishes and flatware, thus having a lot of salty towels. Sun showers, one 20 l. filled on departure. So you shower less often, wash in salt water, rinse off with fresh. Keeps the towels nicer. Once you have your freedom, you'll share ideas with folks, but you'll also discover that being out there, no one judges you for how you've chosen to do it--at least not to your face!

What barnakiel wrote about thinking and thinking again, that's what works. It is a life of experimentation. You learn a lot about yourself in the process, if you pay attention.

Cheers, guys & gals!

Ann
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Old 25-04-2016, 19:21   #19
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Re: Circumnavigation/blue water cruising dreams

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuxie View Post
Whoa, thanks for excellent summary! I agree with all of it and have actually started with my current boat already with some of the points. As it seems to take decent amount of money to get everything done I started thinking a bit more if I should still try to change the boat at this stage.

So I guess your main point is get rid of Maxi and buy something better. You mentioned that your friends sailed to Canary Islands with Maxi 77 so I take it works at least a bit out there. Do you know of any specific problems that would make it unwise for blue water cruising?

Anyways thanks for your view, it's really appreciated. It seems I'll try to adjust my plans to save 1000€ per month for the next boat and in the meanwhile try to fix up just the basics of Maxi so I can sell her off. This should enable me to learn sailing (and repairs) and accumulate the small stuff which can be moved to next boat for the next 1-2 years while looking for the "final" boat and then in few years that boat would be ready to go hopefully.
Generally, when we think of very small or small boats used for extended offshore sailing, where in case of bad weather you will not be able to seek inshore shelter, one may want a boat that maximises safety and comfort in case of meeting with seriously rough seas.

In this respect, the major danger is the sea (waves) and the smaller the boat, the sooner the bad wetaher starts for you. Small and very small here should be seen not only as LOA (length) but also as displacement. Seen in this context, all other things equall, you may want a heavier and longer boat.

Aside from some safety margin, the bigger boat buys one also more storage, more tankage, and more live'able interior - all of which count if the planned voyage is to last some time.

As for Maxi specific challenges, I will name some:
- cast iron fin ballast,
- shallow hull with no deep bilge sump,
- unprotected spade rudder,
- voluminous cockpit with low cabin entry.

If I saw any of the above in any boat, I could say boats just differ and none is perfect. But when you find more than one vulnerability in the same boat, where possible, I would get a boat that does not have any of these features and THEN build up on her strengths and modify her where any defficiencies are found.

You have far less work and cost when you start with a boat that has fewer potential weak points.

I want to sum up that I think Maxi 77 is a great boat but, should other options exist and be easily attainable, not one that I, personally, would take offshore. However, every sailor is best advised to listen to their own preferences and use their own judgement and attitudes in chosing which tool they find best suited for the job at hand.

We got our boat mid May and we went sailing in late June, so when the boat is fine, there is only very minimal time required to take off. It is easier to tell the 'essentials' from the 'options noise' out at sea where chandleries and sailing magazines do not exist.

Haste not to change the boat you have. The slightly bigger ones start at around 6k in Europe and it may be arounk 15k before you have a sea ready boat. I think one less expensive option is to look at IFs. The engineless ones sell at 2k and upwards if one accepts an outboard one.

Cheers,
b.
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Old 26-04-2016, 09:53   #20
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Re: Circumnavigation/blue water cruising dreams

Quote:
Originally Posted by barnakiel View Post
Generally, when we think of very small or small boats used for extended offshore sailing, where in case of bad weather you will not be able to seek inshore shelter, one may want a boat that maximises safety and comfort in case of meeting with seriously rough seas.

In this respect, the major danger is the sea (waves) and the smaller the boat, the sooner the bad wetaher starts for you. Small and very small here should be seen not only as LOA (length) but also as displacement. Seen in this context, all other things equall, you may want a heavier and longer boat.

Aside from some safety margin, the bigger boat buys one also more storage, more tankage, and more live'able interior - all of which count if the planned voyage is to last some time.

As for Maxi specific challenges, I will name some:
- cast iron fin ballast,
- shallow hull with no deep bilge sump,
- unprotected spade rudder,
- voluminous cockpit with low cabin entry.

If I saw any of the above in any boat, I could say boats just differ and none is perfect. But when you find more than one vulnerability in the same boat, where possible, I would get a boat that does not have any of these features and THEN build up on her strengths and modify her where any defficiencies are found.

You have far less work and cost when you start with a boat that has fewer potential weak points.

I want to sum up that I think Maxi 77 is a great boat but, should other options exist and be easily attainable, not one that I, personally, would take offshore. However, every sailor is best advised to listen to their own preferences and use their own judgement and attitudes in chosing which tool they find best suited for the job at hand.

We got our boat mid May and we went sailing in late June, so when the boat is fine, there is only very minimal time required to take off. It is easier to tell the 'essentials' from the 'options noise' out at sea where chandleries and sailing magazines do not exist.

Haste not to change the boat you have. The slightly bigger ones start at around 6k in Europe and it may be arounk 15k before you have a sea ready boat. I think one less expensive option is to look at IFs. The engineless ones sell at 2k and upwards if one accepts an outboard one.

Cheers,
b.
Thank you again Barnakiel for excellent comments. I couldn't find any explanation for the "IF".. I guess it's shortened from something but from what? (:

Also I got all of the other points why boat would be good/bad for blue water but the cast iron fin ballast didn't really make sense not knowing what physical difference those different ballast types make. I was thinking the main weight of the ballast being very low it would be beneficial but I guess I'm just plain mistaken?
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Old 26-04-2016, 13:44   #21
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Re: Circumnavigation/blue water cruising dreams

IF is international folkboat. Personally don't know too much about them, but from what I gather, typically very seaworthy and cost effective, but also wet with a low freeboard and low headroom.

Really nice breakdown of various hull types and a lot more here..Mahina Expeditions - Selecting A Boat for Offshore Cruising
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Old 26-04-2016, 19:10   #22
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Re: Circumnavigation/blue water cruising dreams

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuxie View Post
Thank you again Barnakiel for excellent comments. I couldn't find any explanation for the "IF".. I guess it's shortened from something but from what? (:

Also I got all of the other points why boat would be good/bad for blue water but the cast iron fin ballast didn't really make sense not knowing what physical difference those different ballast types make. I was thinking the main weight of the ballast being very low it would be beneficial but I guess I'm just plain mistaken?
Yes. Off course International Folkboat - a plastic built modified version of the Nordic Folkboat. IFs were built by Marieholm but maybe also by other yards. There are countless IF in Scandinavia. They say well over 3000 boats built.

INTERNATIONAL FOLKBOAT sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com

Leo Goolden sailed a wooden 1948 folkboat to the West Indies last year. You can look up his blog for details of comfort and the likes.

'cast iron fin ballast' - Below I explain my personal and biased preference in small boats:

Where your boat may at times run into objects or take bottom, a long slab ballast may be more forgiving because of the much bigger interface area and many more bolts holding it up. Take a long look at how IF's ballast is formed then look at Maxi 77 ballast configuration. Think about hitting a coral head or running over a waterlogged barrel. Imagine where the damaging forces are concentrated and what the worst case scenario is. I am both legs on the 'belt and braces' wagon. 10 pairs of M12 keel bolts here and our slab is 4 meters long and attaches to a diagonally angled grp stub. Lloyd approved method and scantlings. I do not want a ballast that may part with the hull.

I think that in a small boat context we also gain extra directional stability with a long keel - steering may require less attention and the windvane may work better.

Other sailors will have their own preferences. Mine (in case of small boats used for long term cruising) is a long keel will long slab of ballast (preferably lead, but this is not common in Scandinavian boats of that era).

Cheers,
b.
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Old 01-05-2016, 08:45   #23
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Re: Circumnavigation/blue water cruising dreams

Thanks! So the long keel is mainly about security. Makes sense especially with all the debree floating around. Of course better directional stability makes life much easier on the longer trips.
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