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Old 11-03-2017, 16:21   #31
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Re: Choosing between beneteau and dufour

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Originally Posted by Sandero View Post
Yet another thread about someone who probably has no experience whatsoever...a guess... and is looking to buy a fairly large boat.
And yet another answer that will waste our time by failing to provide a useful answer or to demonstrate even the least level of courtesy to those who are visiting "your forum."

I know there is a tendency among some to create little cliques of the "super cool" folks who have been members since the day the forum was created. I also know that all of us, even the super cool folks who hate to share their sandbox, were once new to the topic and even we (insert audible gasp here) asked "newbie questions."

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It seems to me... but I could be wrong and often am... that if you have some experience with the product class you are looking for... your own experience will, should inform your buying decisions first and foremost.
Hmm ... sounds like an issue of a priori knowledge, is that what you are suggesting? If so, are you applying Euclid's often cited approach and the creation of the "necessary conclusion from the first premise" case?

I ask because what you are suggesting is that anyone who already has "some experience" (creating the posteriori instead) would be so knowledgeable as to not need to ask the question. But therein lies the true nature of the question itself, doesn't it?

Take some time to get to know and understand these two postulates and you'll see why your statement is not only wrong, it is the exact reason that the OP should have the right to post his/her question and why you -- as a participant-expert -- should be thrilled to answer it.

In short, a truly wise man is one that knows enough to ask the question and then enough to listen while others are talking. The OP should offend none by doing what Plato called the "questioning of the imperfect state of truth."

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So... when someone comes on to [sic] a forum such as this... they need to at the very least, when asking opinions/advice... provide a fair amount of background. This post does none of that. I personally consider it little more than spam.
I like what Linda Kinder said, "What you perceive, your observations, feelings, interpretations, are all your truth. Your truth is important. Yet it is not The Truth."

While you may consider the OP's question(s) to be "little more than spam," the reality is that many others may find them to be rational and interesting inquiries into a topic of importance. So why deny not only the OP but others like myself the search for opinion and "truth" about a given topic? Would you deny a visitor to your house the right to a conversation or ask questions? Are you more in charge of this public forum than you would be your own house?
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Old 11-03-2017, 16:38   #32
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Re: Choosing between beneteau and dufour

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how many members have had one of those exact boats? How many have had both? Why wouldn't the circumstances of ownership be relevant?

Hell YES I would like noobs to be post in a noob section. Why not?
Spoken like a true New Yorker.
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Old 11-03-2017, 17:10   #33
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Re: Choosing between beneteau and dufour

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Originally Posted by doc_cj View Post
And yet another answer that will waste our time by failing to provide a useful answer or to demonstrate even the least level of courtesy to those who are visiting "your forum."

I know there is a tendency among some to create little cliques of the "super cool" folks who have been members since the day the forum was created. I also know that all of us, even the super cool folks who hate to share their sandbox, were once new to the topic and even we (insert audible gasp here) asked "newbie questions."



Hmm ... sounds like an issue of a priori knowledge, is that what you are suggesting? If so, are you applying Euclid's often cited approach and the creation of the "necessary conclusion from the first premise" case?

I ask because what you are suggesting is that anyone who already has "some experience" (creating the posteriori instead) would be so knowledgeable as to not need to ask the question. But therein lies the true nature of the question itself, doesn't it?

Take some time to get to know and understand these two postulates and you'll see why your statement is not only wrong, it is the exact reason that the OP should have the right to post his/her question and why you -- as a participant-expert -- should be thrilled to answer it.

In short, a truly wise man is one that knows enough to ask the question and then enough to listen while others are talking. The OP should offend none by doing what Plato called the "questioning of the imperfect state of truth."



I like what Linda Kinder said, "What you perceive, your observations, feelings, interpretations, are all your truth. Your truth is important. Yet it is not The Truth."

While you may consider the OP's question(s) to be "little more than spam," the reality is that many others may find them to be rational and interesting inquiries into a topic of importance. So why deny not only the OP but others like myself the search for opinion and "truth" about a given topic? Would you deny a visitor to your house the right to a conversation or ask questions? Are you more in charge of this public forum than you would be your own house?
Well put. I read these posts and rarely comment. Many times the simplest inquiries set me on a tangent of research. Mean people are a insecure and the wisest ask questions. I learn a lot from this forum and appreciate it. I certainly don't need negativity & Puritanism. Get enought of that in regular life.
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Old 11-03-2017, 17:18   #34
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Re: Choosing between beneteau and dufour

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Originally Posted by doc_cj View Post
And yet another answer that will waste our time by failing to provide a useful answer or to demonstrate even the least level of courtesy to those who are visiting "your forum."

I know there is a tendency among some to create little cliques of the "super cool" folks who have been members since the day the forum was created. I also know that all of us, even the super cool folks who hate to share their sandbox, were once new to the topic and even we (insert audible gasp here) asked "newbie questions."



Hmm ... sounds like an issue of a priori knowledge, is that what you are suggesting? If so, are you applying Euclid's often cited approach and the creation of the "necessary conclusion from the first premise" case?

I ask because what you are suggesting is that anyone who already has "some experience" (creating the posteriori instead) would be so knowledgeable as to not need to ask the question. But therein lies the true nature of the question itself, doesn't it?

Take some time to get to know and understand these two postulates and you'll see why your statement is not only wrong, it is the exact reason that the OP should have the right to post his/her question and why you -- as a participant-expert -- should be thrilled to answer it.

In short, a truly wise man is one that knows enough to ask the question and then enough to listen while others are talking. The OP should offend none by doing what Plato called the "questioning of the imperfect state of truth."



I like what Linda Kinder said, "What you perceive, your observations, feelings, interpretations, are all your truth. Your truth is important. Yet it is not The Truth."

While you may consider the OP's question(s) to be "little more than spam," the reality is that many others may find them to be rational and interesting inquiries into a topic of importance. So why deny not only the OP but others like myself the search for opinion and "truth" about a given topic? Would you deny a visitor to your house the right to a conversation or ask questions? Are you more in charge of this public forum than you would be your own house?
hahahahaa Interesting...

I don't care how long someone has been a member of this forum. And everyone is a new to the forum when they join whether or not they are new to sailing/cruising. I have no problem with people using the forum to learn and advance their knowledge.

On the other hand I find... and I speak only for me... not as a New Yorker... that this particular topic... asked about comparison of two boats he or she is contemplating purchasing is kinda vague and probably as I wrote above needs more background about the OP and their circumstances.

Boats will have their differences obviously and the designers and makers will assemble attributes which they believe makes for a good boat at a reasonable cost. Comparing two (particular) boats of the same LOA or LWL may be interesting... and the opinions could inform the actions of the OP. This is not how I would go about making a major purchase. This is not to say that the difference between the mentioned boats are insignificant. But aren't the differences things that the OP can research (and should) by studying the data from the manufacturers and perhaps "professional reviews"?

It's great to see that the OP has such confidence in the forum members... and indeed there are very experienced sailors with a lot to offer. But this thread reminds me of the posts by the dreamers who have never owned a boat and who want to sail around the world and post a thread asking what they should do.

Mainsil and doc added nothing of substance to the OP thread and chose rather to comment on the OP's questions. Duly noted.
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Old 11-03-2017, 18:15   #35
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Re: Choosing between beneteau and dufour

WOW, with over 40 years of sail and powerboat experience, with many offshore miles and boat building experiences, I'm afraid to ask the all knowing EXPERTS here for advice. I might not give them enough of my life history for them to waste there time.






Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandero View Post
Yet another thread about someone who probably has no experience whatsoever...a guess... and is looking to buy a fairly large boat.

Admittedly people wanting to purchase something like a car or a boat or a place for personal use may not have direct experience with all the models available and seek some "reviews" of those who have experience. I suppose one could research the products online as there are user reviews about almost every product out there. Further there are professional test reviews of many products including comparisons to similar products on the market.

It seems to me... but I could be wrong and often am... that if you have some experience with the product class you are looking for... your own experience will, should inform your buying decisions first and foremost.

So... when someone comes on to a forum such as this... they need to at the very least, when asking opinions/advice... provide a fair amount of background. This post does none of that. I personally consider it little more than spam.
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Old 11-03-2017, 18:24   #36
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Re: Choosing between beneteau and dufour

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FFS Replies like these are the type that drive people away from this forum.

The OP is asking for personal opinions about two specific boats and wants to know if it is from personal experience or not.

Why should they have to supply their life story?

I'm sure that even the most experienced sailors here are not psychic and need to ask others about boats that they have not seen in person or have sailed on.

Just as well he didn't ask about buying a 45ft catamaran
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Old 11-03-2017, 18:44   #37
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Re: Choosing between beneteau and dufour

hahahahahahaha
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Old 11-03-2017, 18:48   #38
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Re: Choosing between beneteau and dufour

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Originally Posted by hoppy View Post
FFS Replies like these are the type that drive people away from this forum.

The OP is asking for personal opinions about two specific boats and wants to know if it is from personal experience or not.

Why should they have to supply their life story?

I'm sure that even the most experienced sailors here are not psychic and need to ask others about boats that they have not seen in person or have sailed on.


Well said that man!!! I has similar arseholes (could be the same ones) comment on a post I made being new and just looking for advice a while ago. Not friendly or helpful fortunately there are a lot of good people and good advice to be found on this forum.
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Old 12-03-2017, 21:14   #39
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Re: Choosing between beneteau and dufour

This may be out of order, but maybe a little De-caf or a dog to kick might make some folks a little less irritable. IMHO
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Old 12-03-2017, 23:34   #40
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Re: Choosing between beneteau and dufour

Wow. If you want to know which better meets your needs then yes you need to provide some background about what your intent is and a bit of background. Otherwise it's just I like that boat because it's pretty.

The replies that people take offense at are asking for background so they can provide a better response. And yes posting the link to the sticky is a valid point.
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Old 13-03-2017, 06:10   #41
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Re: Choosing between beneteau and dufour

Interesting discussion. Do the Dufours have a bolted hull-deck joint? How strong is the support of the rudder/steering mechanism (there was a nasty bene plywood and eventually boat loss-story here on CF a while ago)?

However, these points are not so relevant in the Baltics, unless the OP actually wants to sail in bad weather...
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Old 13-03-2017, 06:30   #42
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Re: Choosing between beneteau and dufour

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Interesting discussion. Do the Dufours have a bolted hull-deck joint? How strong is the support of the rudder/steering mechanism (there was a nasty bene plywood and eventually boat loss-story here on CF a while ago)?

However, these points are not so relevant in the Baltics, unless the OP actually wants to sail in bad weather...
Bolts are labor eaters and the high production yards don't use them anymore. The hull deck joint is glued and they use self tapping screws to bring the joint together while it sets.
Builders of the higher end boats still use both mechanical fastners (bolts) and adhesives. High production boats are now built with full liners which allow thinner hulls and as long as the glue holds reasonably stiff hulls with far less labor.
Builder of higher end boats use traditional methods ie stringers built in to a thicker hull with glassed in bulkheads directly to the hull for stiffness.
And the list goes on...in my opinion for everyday average use the full liner boats with their drawbacks are all most sailors need, perfect for coastal sailing and the odd bit of offshore sailing that most sailors partake in. The better built boats might be the choice of a voyaging sailor who plans on doing lots and lots of offshore work including the type of weather expected in higher lattitudes where the boat really gets a workout. Your ability to write large cheques also has a bearing on which boat you may want to own
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Old 13-03-2017, 08:05   #43
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Re: Choosing between beneteau and dufour

You might be right about the usage most boats gets. But still, glued hull deck joint is as good as the first skin of fiberglass attachment to the next immediate layer. And self tapping screws can't do the job of trough bolted job, far from it. It is assured that some day in time leaks will develop, and fixing them is almost impossible. I know someone that owns a Morgan OI 41, where deck is attached with screws, and it leaks like a sieve. No cost effective repair is possible.
So It seems to me that some new boats builts with cost cutting shortcuts are not made to sustain the effect of cold weather on a craddle with the mast stepped, as we do nowaday in northen climes, and have a limited capacity to sustain even small groundings without major repairs. In my opinion, the Dufour, Grand Soleil, Xboats, or Swans are much better suited for a long life without big problems.
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Old 13-03-2017, 08:44   #44
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Re: Choosing between beneteau and dufour

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...in my opinion for everyday average use the full liner boats with their drawbacks are all most sailors need, perfect for coastal sailing and the odd bit of offshore sailing that most sailors partake in. :
..and depending on the skipper's willingness to respect the limitations of the particular boat, possibly capable of much more in the right hands.



There's a lot of wisdom in RobertSailor's sentiment. How often do you see people crowded around a Chevrolet Impala bemoaning it's inability to ascend Ben Nevis?

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Old 13-03-2017, 09:22   #45
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Re: Choosing between beneteau and dufour

So cold weather will ruin the glue?
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