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Old 27-08-2013, 11:09   #16
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Re: Choice ?

Hello All,
Thanks for the replies.
I should have specified a few things. I am in Europe so that's where I'm looking. I lived in South Africa for 20 years where I sailed Durban to Cape Town 3 times and in very bad weather. I have raced RCOD's in Durban and assisted in deliveries and races Durban to Richards Bay and back a few times.
One of the trips to Cape Town was on a 42 ft ferro cement square rigger.
I have also sailed in the Med some but a long time ago. I am not a complete novice but have not had my own boat or skippered one. I am booked to do a 4 month RYA Master Offshore course early next spring with a commercial endorsement. My wife will also do a course. She won't be just on board to peel potatos and hold a sheet
As far as budget, I'm looking at 40,000 Euros for the boat and 30 to 50% for upgrades. Then a 1.000 Euro a month budget for the next 10 years. I won't be mooring in Saint-Tropez or Monaco
I was a commercial diver for 13 years and might be able to take people diving for a fee to replenish the kitty.
The reason why I haven't done this till now is that I didn't have the cash
That's it for now. Thanks, Al
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Old 27-08-2013, 13:59   #17
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Re: Choice ?

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Originally Posted by alanvdh View Post
What is your take on this?
Cheers,
Al

It's a pay now or pay later question? The problem with older boats isn't their age, it is that you really have no idea what the other owners may have or have not done to it (and a survey means nothing other than 1 person's opinion).

Get the newest boat the fits your needs (which is a lot different than your wants), and when in doubt get the bigger boat.
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Old 27-08-2013, 14:40   #18
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Re: Choice ?

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As far as budget, I'm looking at 40,000 Euros for the boat and 30 to 50% for upgrades. Then a 1.000 Euro a month budget for the next 10 years. I won't be mooring in Saint-Tropez or Monaco
If you are a professional diver, then you have some options...

I think your budget is ok and you can find a lot of boats in that range. But what did you and your wife prefer?
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Old 27-08-2013, 15:01   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don L

It's a pay now or pay later question? The problem with older boats isn't their age, it is that you really have no idea what the other owners may have or have not done to it (and a survey means nothing other than 1 person's opinion).

Get the newest boat the fits your needs (which is a lot different than your wants), and when in doubt get the bigger boat.
That's good advice.

A sailboat, rather like a helicopter, is a collection of parts, all of which have a limited useful life, bound together by a hull of inconsequential value.

Don't make the mistake I made: I bought a 9 year old boat which surveyed excellently, lightly and lovingly used. Despite all of that, 10 years is the witching hour for a multitude of on board systems, and I spent the first two years of ownership replacing them, one after another. I reckon Im getting near 100,000 euros in repairs, and a lot of them were done with "free" labor, that is, did it myself, at great expenditure of time and skinned knuckles.

When you go to sell a boat, hardly any value is given to expenses on refit and replacement. So go for a boat being sold by a guy who just spent a lot of time and effort fixing it up. You will come out ahead. And allow a generous budget for your own repairs and upgrades.
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Old 27-08-2013, 15:07   #20
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Re: Choice ?

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
That's good advice.

A sailboat, rather like a helicopter, is a collection of parts, all of which have a limited useful life, bound together by a hull of inconsequential value.

Don't make the mistake I made: I bought a 9 year old boat which surveyed excellently, lightly and lovingly used. Despite all of that, 10 years is the witching hour for a multitude of on board systems, and I spent the first two years of ownership replacing them, one after another. I reckon Im getting near 100,000 euros in repairs, and a lot of them were done with "free" labor, that is, did it myself, at great expenditure of time and skinned knuckles.

When you go to sell a boat, hardly any value is given to expenses on refit and replacement. So go for a boat being sold by a guy who just spent a lot of time and effort fixing it up. You will come out ahead. And allow a generous budget for your own repairs and upgrades.
I agree with the 10 years life comment for sure....You can buy a nice looking 10 year old boat or a 30 year old boat... either way it's systems are likely 8-10 years old! The newer boat may have "one up" regarding engine, rudder, rig and keel bolts (if it has them) though. Loved that first line too... best I've seen it expressed in awhile!
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Old 27-08-2013, 15:40   #21
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Re: Choice ?

Our boat is +30 y.o. now. She took us round the world being +20 y.o. I look at her and I believe with some re-fit we might do it again.

Age is less of an issue. Initial quality/strength and following maintenance/care count.

Look at various designs and understand them. See what the mindset of the builders was. Not all boats were designed and built to last.

Learn to tell low stress designs from high stress ones. Learn to tell strong from heavy.

b.
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Old 28-08-2013, 10:29   #22
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Re: Choice ?

I agree with the life cycle of the systems on a boat needing attention about every ten years but disagree with the notion that buying a new or 8 year old boat is the answer. If the systems on the "new" boat were crap you'll be replacing them anyway.
WHen buying a used boat I always assume I'll be updating systems on it, if you don't budget that in your going to be sadly disappointed. Whether it's 10 years old or 30 the condition of the boat is directly tied to the previous owners maintenance and care. Something to be carefully inspected by you and the surveyor you hire to give it a going over.
I recently bought a 26 year old boat that's in far better condition than the 5 year old boat I transported for a friend of mine. The one I bought was continually maintained and upgraded over the years by the previous owner, including upgrading a number of systems, the 5 year old boat my friend bought was a disaster, the surveyor was a twit.
Buy the best boat you can with the money you have, regardless of age (within reason), then make sure your budget includes the required upgrades/repairs, that way you know the systems are new/refurbished and will last ten years or so.
The other benefit of redoing the systems is that you will have an intimate knowledge of the boat and it's systems, something that's quite useful when in a remote anchorage.
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Old 28-08-2013, 10:59   #23
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Re: Choice ?

Yeah, for long distance cruising, buy the hull you like and have trust in. Then go from there.
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Old 28-08-2013, 13:40   #24
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Re: Choice ?

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Originally Posted by lifeofreilly57 View Post

(...) The other benefit of redoing the systems is that you will have an intimate knowledge of the boat and it's systems, something that's quite useful when in a remote anchorage.
Yes. But redoing the systems is not sailing. Summer is short in some latitudes.

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Old 28-08-2013, 21:22   #25
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Re: Choice ?

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Originally Posted by alanvdh View Post
Hello All,
I've always been keen on the Beneteau First 38 and 42
Al
The first 42 of the mid 80 is a rare bread.. only made for a few yerars and still draws attention within the race community.. she sports a PHRF in the double digits which says alot fort a 30 year old warhorse..
ours is an 83 and an owners versioin two cabin style.. shes a little heaver than most with a lead keel 8.5 draft and tall mast, 70 feet from the water.. comes across the scales at 24k dry weight.. ours is loaded for cruising so i figure shes about 5 thousand more..
she also sports a staysail...
When I say rare, you wont find another boat that will make you as happy and also piss you off as much as the First 42.. being shes a IOR design, sailing dead down wind wing on wing is a no-no.. its like standing on a banana and riding a skate board at the same time, but take her off the wind a few degrees and you'll see her come to life, and you had better have a little running room when you give her the reins..
Shes a thoroughbred, and should be treated as such, her rigging is built for open ocean competition, and if you have the knowledge and the balls to let her have her way, you'll see speeds in the high teens....
we've lived on our for 10 years now, have traveled the west coast of the US from Alaska in the north to Mexico in the south and are doing a refit for next outing, being Hawaii and the Marshall islands to start..
If you have little or no experance aboard a race boat, the First 42 is not the boat for you, its not for everyone..
But if you have racing in your background, want a comfortable and "damn Fast" cruiser, designed and built for open ocean competition, will withstand almost anything you can thro at it, .. the First 42 is the boat for you..
We've also done a few up grades to our to fit our personal needs for long distance cruising,
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Old 28-08-2013, 23:10   #26
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Re: Choice ?

There are 10 of them for sale here. 7 in Greece 1 in Italy, 1 in France and 1 in Croatia.
Asking prices are between 40.000 and 55.000 Euros. Once I have seen them in the flesh so to speak, I will make a selection and fly a surveyor out from the UK who's been highly recommended. The asking prices are spot on for my budget and still leaves me a lot of room for upgrades etc. I have been in touch by email with Steve who owns Ocean Angel and has also given me a lot of info.
Strange though that there are so many 42's available vs the 38. In Europe that is.
But as someone said "size does matter"
I'm not the type of person who puts priority on flat screen TV's gadgets etc.
I'll be looking at every aspect of the deal. Integrety of the hull, steering system and leaks. As someone said, systems and gear will have to be replaced.
One has had a hull and deck refit 2006 . Complete anti osmosis treatment Veneziani. Another had electrical and hydraulic refitting 2008, backstay and rigging 2005, interior tapestries replaced 2007, replacing seacocks 2008, preventive antiosmosis treatment 2008. Dacron mainsail '08, genoa'07, fiocco'00, 3 spinnaker 2000 (0,5 - 0,75 - 1.5) mobile staysail, rigid wang Windlass and anchor chain (40 m) 2010 electric fridge 2008 GPS Plotter Garmin 2009 Engine Yanmar 58 hp 2008 Harken Furling genoa (2000)
and another; roller Genoa of 2010, roller in mast Mainsail of 2010, as well, and a new Perkins 50HP engine. With full antiosmosis treatment and gelcoat removed and replaced in 2009
So ther you have it. Of course the sales pitch means nothing until surveyed, but I'm rambling on.
Thanks for all your comments and suggestions.
Oh, btw, there is also a First 405 for sale. What's you opinion on those ?
Cheers
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Old 29-08-2013, 09:09   #27
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Re: Choice ?

not sure about the 405..... just the 42... good you got ahold of steve and try dropping a line to scott his close friend, good info from both.....
heard they did have issues with the bottoms when first made but corrected it with a peal and epoxy bottom.. mine is one of them.. never have seen a blister on mine..
didnt want ro "Rag" on about the quirks of the boat, but just a warning, they are not for everyone..

as for upgrades, I've done many for my own use and crusing.. been acused of cruiserfing mine.. her bimini and dodger are 1 and 1/4 inch stainless and sports a 1 inch stainless rack on the bimini for the two 130 watt solar pannels.. the bladder tanks are being removed this summer and I'm building fiberglass tanks.. the forward head was removed and a pantry built in and a watermaker installed.. also installing an on demand hot water heater..
I've had many say you cant take your home with you while cruising but they change their minds when the come aboard our boat.. the only thing we're missing is the front lawn..
and it seems you've got the bug for a FIRST 42.. and why not.. She's the sexyest lady at the dance
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Old 29-08-2013, 09:17   #28
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Re: Choice ?

yes, I must admit. I do have the bug for the 42
Good idea converting the forward head. Hey, who needs 2 heads.
I did my first sailing course in the Med more than 30 years ago on a Dufour 24.
There were 5 of us on board and we used an alternative to the rather basic open head.
Over the bow with everyone else looking the other way. This is at sea obviously. When alongside we used the clubs facility. What a luxury.
Wouldn't want to go to those extremes though.
Actually, Capt'n Steve suggested the 405 might be an alternative to the 42.
Cheers
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Old 01-09-2013, 07:46   #29
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Re: Choice ?

any more thoughts about the 405 anyone ?
One for sale in Greece going for +- 30.000 Euros. Would give me a lot of room for upgrades etc. if hull, deck in decent repair.
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Old 01-09-2013, 09:11   #30
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Re: Choice ?

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As far as budget, I'm looking at 40,000 Euros for the boat and 30 to 50% for upgrades. Then a 1.000 Euro a month budget for the next 10 years. I won't be mooring in Saint-Tropez or Monaco
the 1000 budget , is that running the boat , or all in ( i.e. food etc) that will be a challenge for two people. And no you will not be mooring in St. Tropex, you wont be mooring at all, really

Dave
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