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Old 25-01-2006, 12:27   #16
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Quote:
Jim H once whispered in the wind:
Tim, when we're ready for a 34, I'm hiring you to find one for us.
OK, just to qualify things a bit, while it sounds like a great deal (and it was), $8,000 for the boat is only the beginning!

$680 for survey

$570 for taxes, title, registration, documentation, etc...

$1500 so far for engine parts, accessories, and supplies (of course half of this was for a whole spare engine!)

$1700 so far for other parts and supplies, mostly hoses and hose clamps, wiring, lights, pumps, etc....

$760 to have the mast pulled for a detailed mast and rig survey. What with the rigging repairs that might be needed and upgrades I'ld like to do, I'll be lucky if I can get the mast put back into the boat for less than what I paid for the boat in the first place!

$1000 so far for new equipment, like another anchor and rode, charts, etc... This doesn't count a great deal of equipment I already owned, and of course there is still a lot more stuff I would like to get.

And this is just for the first 6 months of this project. I mean, really all she needs is re-plumbing; re-wiring; re-coring of decks; re-painting (topsides, decks, and spars); re-rigging; and re-powering... did I leave anything out? If there is anything else that could be re-done or replaced, it probably should be! I guess the sails are OK.... Oh, and the berth cushions are great, too!

Don't forget operating costs:

$335 so far for diver to scrub bottom and keep it clean (for now, this has been cheaper than hauling out to refresh the bottom paint, and even with new paint I would probably still want a diver to come by anyway!)

$205 for liability insurance

$0 for slip (thank god for family with their own private dock!)

This doesn't include my travel costs for going back and forth to work on the boat (which is 440 miles away right now).

Just for a dose of reality...

Regards,
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Old 25-01-2006, 12:47   #17
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Quote:
Euro Cruiser once whispered in the wind:
It wasn't financial limitations that kept these boats from selling but rather the creativity and effort of a willing buyer.
To leap-frog on Jack's comments, let me add that asking price and selling price are sometimes different things.

And to quote myself from another thread on another board:

A lot of cheap boats listed for sale are over-priced, and some are over-priced at any price. A few are under-priced -- those are the ones that you are looking for. Under-pricing might be a consequence of the market niche the boat is marketed in (e.g. old obsolete race boats, uncommon boat for location), and/or the psychology of the seller and/or broker (e.g. "owner is walking away from sailing," owner more interested in playing golf than in cleaning the boat up to make it more marketable). While sellers often over-estimate a boat's condition, sometimes their brokers might see the condition and marketability as worse than it is (perhaps because cheap boats are not their market niche).

Still and all, a good deal might not be such a bargain if the boat is not reasonably well-suited for the sailing that you want to do with it. So learn as much as you can about assessing a boat's condition and suitability. Then you just have to be in the right place at the right time when the right boat comes along at the right price.

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Old 25-01-2006, 12:59   #18
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Quote:
Catamount once whispered in the wind:
I mean, really all she needs is re-plumbing; re-wiring; re-coring of decks; re-painting (topsides, decks, and spars); re-rigging; and re-powering... did I leave anything out?
In that case, Tim, you're fired!

I've been working pretty hard on these issues as I work through the process of buying a second sailboat (sick, really). In a week or two, I should be able to post a relatively detailed report on the process.

One detail I learned about: there's a subscription-based resource that is like yacht world but it shows the actual selling prices of boats you may be researching. I saw of comparison of "for sale" and "recently sold," and the differences were pretty major and surprising. (I.e., asking prices for the same boat may range radically, but selling prices are very closely grouped-- suggesting that heavily upgraded boats may sell for close to the same as the mediocre ones...)

In a nutshell, the process is mind boggling...

Jim H

p.s., Zach, my apologies if this is getting too far removed from your original questions!
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Old 25-01-2006, 13:52   #19
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Used boat

We have at our Yacht Club a C&C27 C&C29 Catalina 27 Catalina 270 Catalina 30 Windward 28 Aloha 27 Tanzer 8.5 and a few others.
Looking at the hull shape including keel and rudder, I like the Windward the best, the Tanzer 8.5 next, then ( name escapes me but they are too much $$ )
There is a used stretched Windward for sale at Thunderbird Marine in BC. The T8.5 and Windward handle the rough weather the best. I have commented on the C&Cs before. I would only get a boat with a decent diesel for cruising. The currents are too strong and the waves are too close together on the BC coast. The T8.5 needs a better rudder and heavier standing rigging. Mine has those plus other mods. Can not comment on the other 28 foot boats as I have not seen them. You are always welcome to visit and I would be pleased to show you any of these boats.
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Old 25-01-2006, 14:53   #20
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Hey Zach, here is a sailing Triton FREE to a good home (albeit in need of re-powering): http://www.triton381.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1528
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Old 25-01-2006, 15:54   #21
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Thanks for the comments guys!

A free triton? I signed up for the board, waiting for activation... No email address to contact the poster or the owner of the boat.

This old boat book arrived on my doorstep yesterday, as well as 2 books on surveying. Crunched the 2 on surveying, all I can say... is it really that simple?

My list:

Walk the decks, its bad if its squishes.

Look for stress cracks, having a direction and source. (The Cheoy lee has teak decks/cabin roof. Hard to see that.)

Its also bad if the hull makes a dull sound. (Tap every 2-3 inches and listen for change in sound, flag with tape areas that sound less sharp and check the back side of panel.)

Poorly done repairs are easy to see, and good ones you probably wont, unless you see it from the inside.

Sight down the sides, is everything parrallel. Is the keel square to the sides of the boat.

Look for crunched in decks (Under masts) and poorly designed sharp corners for long straight cracks. (again... teak.)

Check the bulkheads inside for tabbing/sag as well as compression and rot.

Check any stringers for rot and cracks. Signs of hard grounding, repairs... etc.

Look at the hull/deck joint for poor attachment and leaks. (As well as how it is fastened together.)

Check the keel for buldges from water beside between ballast and glass. Wet spots, cracks. (Check bilge for cracks over keel, shouldnt be any, or water will run down and cause swelling.)

Look for blisters, moist spots, bumps and buldges on the hull.

Check bedding of whatever may be left, as well as backing plates for all things protruding through the deck.

---

Thats just the hull... all I can say is that it sure isnt like an old wooden boat!

Survey before you buy it: "Smell the air, poke every square inch, find the most anal retentive surveyor on planet earth."

Then after the deed is done its all about not looking at anything structural until your on the rail. If not, you may scare yourself into, "It wont make it to the yard!" all the rest of the time "Dont touch that! Dont look behind that! Darn, the frames are missing in action..."

---

One thing that neither book lists is how to check a transom hung rudder for wear and tear. Any suggestions? I gather that the pintle and gudgeon setup is a bit more different than a sailing dingy!

Any trouble spots that you guys would check?

Thanks again,

Zach
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Old 25-01-2006, 16:42   #22
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Rudder

A transom hung rudder seems to have the most flexing around the lower pintle gudgeon area. If there is more than 17% area forward of the pivot point the rudder may get more flexing than the input to the tiller would indicate. Some rudders are foam cored but have so much resin and cloth on them that they are strong. Some have a plywood core and may or may not be strong. I would prefer a solid wood core with at least three layers of cloth. Hard to find out about all this. Check the attachment points: You are looking for something in the industrial strength range. Check to see if the transom flexes and for any cracks around the attachment points. I have only owned boats with transom hung rudders. Currently building a rudder for the small boat. I got cracks in my previous building effort on the bigger boat.
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Old 25-01-2006, 17:00   #23
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In response to some of the questions you guys posed...

Jim H - Whats the name of this subscription service? I've noticed that at boat shows and the like you knock a third of the value off... A bit less with local sellers, but same concept applies!


Why not work 3,000 hours?:

I have thought about working the 3,000 hours while recieving a paycheck and then purchasing something.

My logic (if you can call it that... hehe) is that at my lowly 9 bucks an hour I'll have 27,000 before tax.

I've got 5-6 thats liquid for quick use, and another car half way to being finished, making the tally somewhere around 15k. (Its a '75 Vette in case anyones interested... I've got to put the engine back together as well as clean up the body a bit.)

The problem with buying something 5-6k and refitting it from there... I'm 250 miles away from closest possible birth. If I was down every weekend, I'd have 4 hours in the drive each way, friday night down, sunday back. Plus gas cost, and I doubt the vessel would be habitable during this period...

That starts becoming more expensive than I can swing, along with 8 hours + each week just in getting down and back in "Sync" with the project.

---
Option 2:

Being that I only have 5-6 that is liquid at this moment, the options arent much brighter than a bare hull... Then I'm negative almost 2k to get it to my yard.

That wont work...

---
Option 3:

Wait a year or two before buying something? Currently my work schedule squeeks out a hair over 8k a year, not counting side jobs and what have you.

I'm pulling my hair out (so to speak... it grows back quick!) with a case of wanderlust, but it is not exactly cost effective to blow 2g's on a trip, when your looking at a boat for 15k! Is it curable with enough block sanding? I think its possible...


The jobs I have found in addition to my current part time are less than 6 bucks an hour... and completely wipe away any chance of an open weekend! Heading down to the big boat, thumbing a ride with any of the fellow powersquadron members... etc.)

If its in my yard I have 5 days with a known schedule, and 2 without. If I put in every possible minute on the boat I think I can easily put 40 hours into it each week, I just have to keep my GPA up... and not go completely broke!

---

Option 4 (The one I like the most...)

Buy a boat, that will cost around 2k to get into my back yard. Refit as cheap as possible with new and known good parts. Get it in the water in a coastal setting near both a college, and a boat yard. Get the skillset on this one, get the job in the 20 dollar/hour range... while near the water. Finish up my degree while putting the final touches on this one.

---

Thanks again!

Zach
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Old 25-01-2006, 18:02   #24
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Quote:
Zach once whispered in the wind:
In response to some of the questions you guys posed...

Jim H - Whats the name of this subscription service?
It's called soldboats.com, and sign-up is available here:

http://yachtworld.com/members/soldboats_form.html

Note, however, that it might be $416 a year, and you may need to provide business credentials (surveyor, broker, etc.).

Jim H
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Old 25-01-2006, 18:13   #25
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416!

I guess if it saves you that much on a model boat... it'd be worth it. A bit much of an outlay at the moment, but I will keep it in mind.
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Old 25-01-2006, 22:05   #26
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Zach,

You've been very busy getting educated in the last few months, since I responded to your first posts. (I forget the board, but I was the one who gave the rather lenghty response that you decided to "print out and tape to the wall"). It appears you've been thinking about how you will support yourself while you're cruising. Are you thinking that the experience of rebuilding a hull will be essential to providing the experience that will make you employable while you're out there? Then your project might make some sense. But there are plenty of stories about guys who have started something like this, finally quit, and wind up selling out cheap. It takes a lot of determination.

Your enthusiasm is wonderful. But I still think that until you finish your studies, the resources you can direct toward this goal, in terms of money, time and energy, will by necessity be divided. Once you finish school, several changes can be made in your life that can accelerate you toward your goal: you can move closer to the water, you'll have greater earning power thanks to your new degree (if you're studying something marketable), and you will have had time to continue gathering information that will help you determine what kind of a boat with what modifications is necessary for your intended itinerary.

It might be helpful for us to know what type of degree you are pursuing: will it in some way help you earn a living when "traveling the world"? Are you planning to take time off to cruise after graduation, then return to a shore-based career? Is the degree something you want to have no matter whether or not it ever provides you an income? This part of your life is dominating everything right now: how does it fit into the overall picture?

That aside for the moment, were I you, I'd direct that extra time and energy you're willing to spend traveling and refurbishing a boat toward getting the diploma checked off my list, by maybe carrying more units in each term, and continue your side-education about cruising and doing things to like taking classes and summer crewing to satisfy the passion for sailing in the meantime.

The cart might not be ahead of the horse, but it's right up beside it.

Now, that's just my personality speaking. You must go your own way.

Jeff
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Old 26-01-2006, 15:57   #27
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Jeff: Nice talking with you again...

Seems like the same folks frequent all the different discussion boards!

Your comments (page 1 of the ssca question in the link above) have been quite valuable.

The plan has been set in action!

I've termed the savings side "Save the pennies!" Positive almost 2k since last discussion, some of that in a CD. Had a set back with a bicycle purchase that wound up costing me a bit more than I'd like to admit...

The reading has been non-stop.

Expierience: I forgot to mention that there is a Paceship 24 in the mix as well. My dad bought it from a friend that upgraded to a bigger boat, finally got tired of the slip payments and dropped the price.

---

As far as the degree, currently on track for an english and communications double. Not exactly the most highly paid positions, but a broad foundation. I'd like to do more engineering related studies, but my math is not up to the task.

I am going to finish it before I set off to anywhere. Currently I'm a full time student, can take more hours by their rules... but need the working hours.

---

In my mind the degree is not so much of a big deal for my future plans. I dont enjoy being stuck behind a desk even if the pay is there... as I value my time a bit more than the money. At some point though, I think its safe to say we all quit wanting to work with our hands. Either by our choice or the cost of advil! So a degree is something to fall back on incase I ever want to get a "real job" and settle down.

The other side of the coin is that I've heard enough "If I'd have only..." from folks I work with, friends, and others to have adopted the same thought process. Do it, get it done with and have no regrets. (Also solidified by the fact I'm in manufacturing. Shift manager is going on 65, I dont really want to do this the rest of my life.)

---------


Have any of you guys replaced the internal ballast on a full keel boat? Evidently cheoy lee had some variance in how much they put down there... and of what. Some are lead, some iron punching/concrete. I like lead! Eat enough paint and solder enough wires as a youngster so the brain cell count drops! (Explains why anyone would be driven to bring a hull back to life!)

---

Any sources for mast extrusions, semi-local to the east coast/ Central NC?

---

Do any of yall know why chainplates are so thick when the shrouds are attached to the mast with an aluminum cap on the top? I'm finding it a bit odd that it doesnt rip the shroud off the masthead before the chainplate snaps.



Thanks again guys,

Zach
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Old 26-01-2006, 19:07   #28
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Two Thousand Dollars in Pocket Change?

Hey, Zach,

Thanks for the info. re your post-secondary education. That helps to put things into perspective, so I'll quit harping on getting the degree done first. I see better now how you're thinking.

I admire your radical savings plan. You are truly focused. Because you are already a full-time student, you may have to accept mediocre wages for a while, but you seem to be able to turn a buck wherever you can.

I'll repeat one of my questions: you're suggesting a plan to rebuild a boat, then use it to establish your credentials as a skilled laborer in marine systems to procure work in the places you visit. Is that the idea?

If it is, I see some degree of logic to that thinking, though it would still be a huge project. If not, I think you'd be much better off graduating, working two jobs for a couple of years, then buying a boat that you can move aboard and refit; then you could rely on selling other skills to support yourself while out there, like maybe teaching English to eager learners in faraway places, or one of the other possible income sources already mentioned in this thread. You're very motivated, resourceful and adaptable, and shouldn't have much trouble.

Is this "additional crewman" a sure thing? If so, is it a sailing buddy, or a wife/girlfriend? I can claim no experience here, but I'm sure many here will tell you it makes a huge difference which, and will offer much advice to ponder.

With all that talk about waterproof compartments & seals, I think you have been reading James Baldwin. Right?

Welcome to the board, and here's to hoping you become a regular. The old farts need your optimism, vision and energy.

Jeff

P.S. I echo Jack's advice about keeping to conventional boat modifications. It will be easier for you, and I'd hire a "quality, traditional" workman before I'd hire a "creative, but eccentric" one.
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Old 26-01-2006, 19:19   #29
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Heading up to look at it tomorrow morning.

Also going to try and look at:
Nor' Sea 27
Pearson Triton
Cheoy Lee offshore 28
Westsail 32
Tartan 27

C&C seems to be well represented as well, any models to keep an eye out for?

Tartans few and far between... no 30's.

No Cape Dory 25D's or larger in my price range...

Anyone in particular that you guys would suggest contacting in the Norfolk, VA area?

Zach
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Old 26-01-2006, 19:28   #30
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Jeff:

Guilty as charged! The Atom has been quite a boat to read about.

Yes, my current line of thinking is to work on boats for a living. For all intents and purposes to use this project as a way of honing my skills, as well as at a later date acting as a billboard for my services. It seems like the easiest way to attract attention to your skills, is your own car/boat. I dont know many people that would let someone work on anything they own, without a reference or benchmark of the quality they can expect.

Even if it takes me 12 coats of paint and 9 attempts at a rub rail... by the end of it, I will know what I'm doing and have a final product acceptable to both myself and others.

Tomorrow I'll lay eyes apon her, and with any luck return with pictures.

P.S. Yes a girlfriend/wife is in the future for me. I figure a boat is a decent filter, "Survive going somewhere in a 9x30 cell, trapped with another human!"

I've also heard from reliable sources that the line, "Wanna see my boat" makes a females knees weak. I dont know how spartan the interior can to keep them weak though!

Zach
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