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Old 27-05-2014, 11:28   #91
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Re: Cheeki Rafiki

I posted this on another thread, but I thought it pertinent to the conversation:

This should answer the statements regarding "Beneteau should take action!".. they have..

According to the following BeneteauUSA 2010 (October) keel-bolt specific service announcement [apologies for the weird grammar, I just copied/pasted from the following link]:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/955501/Keel%20Bolts.pdf


Back Ground Information
Cast Iron keel use galvanized bolts - There are threaded sockets cast into the keel
Lead keels use stainless steel nuts - There are threaded rods cast into the keel
You can use stainless steel bolts in a cast iron keel, but you should remove and inspect the threads for galvanic corrosion yearly.
A bolt only has to engage the threads 1 times the diameter of the bolt to be effective. 90 % of Beneteau Keel bolts are 3 inches are less in length.
Replacing Information
Use a battery powered drill with a wire brush wheel. Clean the heads down to new metal. Tip: use a shop-vac to clean rust dust and flecks as you clean the heads.
Remove 1 bolt and inspect. At this point you should be able to make a determination if the bolt is structurally sound or needs to be replaced. A complete set of the bolts and washers can ordered from the Beneteau Spare Parts Department. We will need the Model and Type of keel on of your boat.
14mm bolt uses 22 mm socket
20mm bolt uses 1-3/16 socket
30mm bolt uses 1 7/16 socket
If you have water entering the boat through the bolt hole, replace the bolt and make future plans with your local boat yard to haul, separate and reinstall the keel.
If the head of the bolts are so degraded that the socket will not back it out, use a side grinder to grind two flat sides on the bolt. This should allow you to remove the bolt with a wrench. Worst case scenario: Remove boat from the water, grind the heads completely off and remove the keel from the
hull. Then using the remaining shaft of the bolt, remove the bolts and reinstall the keel.


Coating the heads of the bolts with a rust preventative paint will prolong the life of the bolts. Tip: I have used Trailercoat from West Marine with success.
Do not use sealant on the bolt threads; only use sealant around the bolt heads to keep bilge water out of the bolt socket.
The keel to hull joint and exterior seam should be sealed with Marine Adhesive Sealant 5200.
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Old 27-05-2014, 11:32   #92
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Re: Cheeki Rafiki

Yep, a rel CYA....Cover Your A**! Yearly! yeah.. right....
Kinda like a car manufacturer with a brake defect saying you should have your brakes checked monthly!
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Old 27-05-2014, 11:39   #93
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Re: Cheeki Rafiki

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Originally Posted by Cheechako View Post
Yearly! yeah.. right....
I gotta say, I spat coffee across my screen when I read that.

I'd been feeling a bit antsy about keel-boats after the whole C.R. discussion over the weekend, and thought it may be prudent to pull them, one at a time, while still in the water - just to take a look (plus to see if there's any water in the threaded holes).

I'd sent an email to BeneteauUSA requesting best-practice data and information on the exact grade and sizing of the replacement bolts, and while I was waiting I came across that document.

I have no indications that there's anything wrong with them, the heads are sealed in with white bilge-kote and no signs of discoloration.. but still, every year? come on!
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Old 27-05-2014, 12:16   #94
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Re: Cheeki Rafiki

From the Beneteau USA website


Quote:


Ballast and Keel
Ballast / Keel Bolt Rusting
Most of the time you can clean the bolts with a wire brush and paint them with a rust inhibitor. This should be done yearly. While the head of the bolt may be rusted, the structural integrity of the shank of the bolt is usually not compromised. If you're cleaning the bolts and the material is flaking off, it's probably time to replace them.

The boat does not have to be out of the water to change the keel bolts. Change them one at a time if the boat is in the water.

A complete methodology is available at your request, please contact your local Beneteau dealer.

Ballast / Routine Maintenance On Keel To Hull Joint
Visually inspect the keel to hull joint. It is not uncommon to have a small (1/8") gap at the front and rear seam of the keel to deck joint. This is caused by the keel having a flat top and the hull having a rounded shape. The gap should be cleaned with mineral spirits, allowed to dry and filled with 3-M 5200 Marine Adhesive.
Ballast and Keel / FAQ - BENETEAU USA
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Old 27-05-2014, 12:25   #95
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Re: Cheeki Rafiki

It really seems like keel bolts would be a place not to skimp... That said, why would they not use titanium cast into the keel with titanium nuts or something similar that is virtually impervious to corrosion? I'm no metal expert but I know the bill titanium as having a much much longer life than SS.

If you were to replace a bolt from the top, could you not use a titanium bolt instead of a stainless one?

Is galvanic corrosion and issue with that or is it something more, like titanium being less suitable for some other reason?
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Old 27-05-2014, 12:58   #96
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Re: Cheeki Rafiki

They must be drunk!! Each year bolts removal for inspection?? WTF!!!!
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Old 27-05-2014, 12:59   #97
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Re: Cheeki Rafiki

Quote:
Originally Posted by Target9000 View Post
If you were to replace a bolt from the top, could you not use a titanium bolt instead of a stainless one?

Is galvanic corrosion and issue with that or is it something more, like titanium being less suitable for some other reason?
Firstly,
Products-Titanium-Bolts
"All titanium bolts are made to order".. I dread to think of the cost. A single M16 threaded rod of around 1000mm in length is around $120. I believe the bolts have to be milled down from larger stock rod, so this drives the cost up dramatically.

The corrosion resistance of titanium is the result of a stable oxide film on the metal surface that is formed while oxidizing under naturally occurring conditions.

Titanium is one of the most nobel in the galvanic series so when coupled to other metals it will almost always act as a cathode in a galvanic cell so there will be no galvanic corrosion on titanium.

In seawater there is no appreciable galvanic corrosion on titanium when is coupled to austenitic, stainless steel or Monel. Titanium is cathodic to aluminum, carbon steel, zinc, and magnesium in seawater. The rate of corrosion of these less noble metals depends upon the ratio of the surface areas of the two metals in the galvanic couple.

When a metal is coupled to Titanium special precautions shall be foreseen in order to prevent Titanium galvanic corrosion; this includes:
  1. The use of an insulation material in order to avoid the electrical contact between the two materials.
  2. Placing of the contact area in a non-wetted environment
  3. Use large anode area vs small Titanium area.
As Titanium doesn't suffer crevice corrosion or Stress Corrosion Cracking to the same degree as low-oxygen stainless, you may be able to use a coated Titanium to act as a barrier against the Cast Iron keel. The issue is really that the titanium would be fine in Seawater, but caution has to be taken when bonding it over a larger area with another metal, as if seawater is present you can increase the loading on your cathodic protection system, so your anodes will disappear quicker.

Another option that may be cheaper/easier to use could be Super Duplex!
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Old 27-05-2014, 13:01   #98
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Re: Cheeki Rafiki

Quote:
Originally Posted by Target9000 View Post
It really seems like keel bolts would be a place not to skimp... That said, why would they not use titanium cast into the keel with titanium nuts or something similar that is virtually impervious to corrosion? I'm no metal expert but I know the bill titanium as having a much much longer life than SS.

If you were to replace a bolt from the top, could you not use a titanium bolt instead of a stainless one?

Is galvanic corrosion and issue with that or is it something more, like titanium being less suitable for some other reason?

I guess , titanium its expensive , why they are going to change the SS if they even cant change the cheap grid liners anyway .. make sense??
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Old 27-05-2014, 13:02   #99
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Re: Cheeki Rafiki

Quote:
Originally Posted by neilpride View Post
They must be drunk!! Each year bolts removal for inspection?? WTF!!!!
..actually, methamphetamine sprung to mind!
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Old 27-05-2014, 13:13   #100
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Re: Cheeki Rafiki

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cavalier View Post
..actually, methamphetamine sprung to mind!

Actually the statement come from Beneteau USA, curious if in France its the same song, inspect bolts each year... i will say no.. unless its a rare race boat thing like the 40.7 or others slim thin weirdo hig stress keel version... By the way , the ordeal to drop a keel and doing a full inspection or repair its linked to a mast removal to, so time to replace that corroded mast step to...
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Old 27-05-2014, 13:32   #101
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Re: Cheeki Rafiki

I really need to find the video of when my boats keel was rebedded. Mine are SS J bolts embedded in a lead keel about 1 inch I believe with rather substantial nuts in the bilge holding it. You have not lived until you see a crane lifting the top half of your boat while the keel locked to a metal frame is also being lifted off the ground with nothing but, 5200 holding the keel to the boat. Strong stuff! Yard worker had to go around with a wedge and mallet to cut through the 5200 so they could separate the keel from the boat.
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Old 27-05-2014, 14:56   #102
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Re: Cheeki Rafiki

Titanium is many times more expensive than stainless.
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Old 27-05-2014, 15:23   #103
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Re: Cheeki Rafiki

For those of you getting upset about an annual bolt inspection. Please re-read the relevant post.

1. They use galvanised bolts in cast iron keels.
2. You can put stainless bolts in the cast iron keels, but if so you should check for galvanic corrosion annually.

Sounds perfectly reasonable to me.
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Old 27-05-2014, 15:30   #104
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Re: Cheeki Rafiki

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terra Nova View Post
Titanium is many times more expensive than stainless.
A yacht sinking with the loss of four crew has no price.

I understand there is a line that must be drawn to control costs, but really, there are certain parts of a yacht that shouldn't be skimped on. I would imagine the keel is one of them.

I'm not an engineer so I don't know if titanium would be preferable. But the above suggestion of the super duplex sounds pretty good too.
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Old 27-05-2014, 16:01   #105
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Re: Cheeki Rafiki

Tar--Like your Westsail, Terra Nova is internally ballasted (10, 000 lbs of lead). So I am unconcerned for her keel safety.

The problem with keel-bolt installations is that they're usually at the very bottom of the bilge, where the bilge pump won't quite get all the water out. So the bolts/nuts/studs sit in an electrolyte, (usually) seawater.

The solution is not to add thousand$ to the cost of the boat, in custom titanium hardware; that's for outer space vehicles. The solution is to keep bilge water from continually soaking the fasteners.
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