Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 25-05-2014, 14:04   #76
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 4,960
Re: Cheeki Rafiki

The old S&S Swans are a timeless design. I had an early Tartan 44 S&S and it was very similar in appearance. The Swans were very tough boats and that's why many of them are being cherished and restored and still hold their value. I'm sure the early Swans will be sailing while many of the newer boats will be ready for the landfill.
__________________

__________________
robert sailor is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 25-05-2014, 14:07   #77
Senior Cruiser
 
DoubleWhisky's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Home at Warsaw, Poland, boat in Eastern Med
Boat: Ocean Star 56.1 LR
Posts: 1,841
Re: Cheeki Rafiki

Quote:
Originally Posted by minaret View Post
Are these not SS bolts in a cast iron keel? Sound like a recipe for corrosion to anyone else? I wonder if the European construction standard which says boat fittings are required to last five years and no more comes into play here. They install brass thru hulls based on the same guidelines, knowing they are only going to last a bit more than that five years. Wonder if the same type of reasoning applies here? If you asked them, would they tell you you are expected to drop the keel for inspection after five years and regularly thereafter? If so, are they telling prospective clients this beforehand? Seems like the added cost of regular inspection of integral structural parts of the boat would defray any savings made by buying a cheaper brand...


Using a cast iron ballast keel also restricts construction to keel bolts, instead of the usual studs or "J" bolts which are cast into a lead keel. This means you are relying on the thread of the SS bolt and the thread of the cast iron keel to hold things together. Big difference between this and a cast in J stud.
My boat has lead keel and the bronze bolts (or studs?) are of something between "L" and "J" shape (I watched the preparations for casting). Part of them has their (near) horizontal part looking forward, and part backward. In most of the keel they are doubled, as the keel has quite long chord, so it is wide enough in upper part.
Does such a configuration need to be dropped for check as often as iron/ss combination?
__________________

__________________
DoubleWhisky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-05-2014, 15:26   #78
Registered User

Join Date: May 2014
Location: UK
Boat: O'Day 40
Posts: 34
Re: Cheeki Rafiki

Folks - everyone is well shaken up about this and thinking about our own boats I guess - I certainly am!

Without responding to any one particular post / forum (and I've looked at a few!!) grateful if you would consider the following collated suggestions - not all my own - but which I tend to concur …

1. The initial leaks were caused by a few (maybe 2or 3??) failed keel bolts?
2. Reason for bolt failure...I don't buy into this "previous grounding" argument I'm afraid
3. More likely metal fatigue?
4. Should we treat our keel bolts like our rigging? Like, change every 5 years?
5. Probably not...but on a production cruiser / racer which has been thrashed for (I've heard) ten years?
6. The British are responsible for recovering the wreck and the MAIB for analysing the cause
7. They should (ASAP) look at boats of the same type (and track record) as CF and draw some keel bolts
8. That said – metal fatigue is almost impossible to detect
9. Until that time, constructive (and non – abusive) discussion on forum such as these can only be a good thing

As a living (and to keep my darling boat as she's is accustomed) I do risk assessments on ships for a marine insurance company…it’s all about how to stop something bad happening but when it does, how to recover from it.

As for Loss of Keel – I’ve never drawn the bolts and the boat is 20+ years old. Are the bolts stainless steel? No idea. Last survey report “not able to access keel bolts – water in bilge”…duh?

Recovery Measures - still working on that one!

Something good comes from most maritime incidents and will for this I’m sure – hey – we’re all talking aren’t we?! x
__________________
tonywatson58 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-05-2014, 15:36   #79
Registered User

Join Date: May 2014
Location: UK
Boat: O'Day 40
Posts: 34
Re: Cheeki Rafiki

Quote:
Originally Posted by Exile View Post
And "Hear hear" to that!
__________________
tonywatson58 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-05-2014, 15:43   #80
Resin Head
 
minaret's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Seattle WA
Boat: Nauticat
Posts: 7,201
Images: 52
Re: Cheeki Rafiki

Quote:
Originally Posted by svlamorocha View Post
Who said this boat has an iron keel? It is my understanding that there are two keel versions of the 40.7. Deep lead keel and shallow iron keel. Got that from a 40.7 owner I met in the Marquesas earlier this month.

Presumably this racing boat woud have the deep lead keel...

C


Look more carefully at the pics. No keel stub, very long thin fin bolted directly to hull. What do you think would happen if you built that out of lead? Obviously, it would bend. Therefore, that keel had to be built from an alloy. Cast iron is cheap and heavy, therefore that's what they use. The deep keel lead ballast version may have a lead bulb on the bottom of an iron keel, I don't know. But if it's keel profile looks anything like CR, it's an alloy keel.
__________________
O you who turn the wheel and look to windward,

Consider Phlebas, who was once handsome and tall as you.
minaret is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-05-2014, 16:04   #81
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Mackay,QLD, Australia
Boat: planning a approx 45ft cat
Posts: 3,651
Images: 3
Re: Cheeki Rafiki

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheechako View Post
I'm sorry but I don't believe for a minute that racing puts anything near the stress on the boat as heavy weather does. Being slammed broadside by a large wave, or dropping off one puts severe stresses on the under water part of the hull, keel and rudder. Sailing fast is not even comparable. Boats should be built to take this or be sold as "not suitable for offshore use".
I never for a minute had doubts regarding my molded internal ballast keels in any weather. A bolted on keel would always be in the back of my mind in such conditions. There really is no adequate way to know the condition of the bolts. There are tests and schemes to do so but none of them are conclusive.
Light built boats lose keels in rough conditions, I cant remember how many times I've seen pics of overturned hulls in a world race. No keel attached! These boats were heavily engineered, but the world has a lot of variables....
I do agree severe weather would put more stress on a keel than racing per say. Racing is often done in rough/severe weather conditions however.
__________________
downunder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-05-2014, 16:10   #82
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Mackay,QLD, Australia
Boat: planning a approx 45ft cat
Posts: 3,651
Images: 3
Re: Cheeki Rafiki

QUOTE "As for Loss of Keel – I’ve never drawn the bolts and the boat is 20+ years old. Are the bolts stainless steel? No idea. Last survey report “not able to access keel bolts – water in bilge”…duh? "

Are the keel bolts on a First 40 readily accessible for inspection and change out?
__________________
downunder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-05-2014, 16:23   #83
Freelance Delivery Skipper..
 
boatman61's Avatar

Community Sponsor
Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: PORTUGAL
Posts: 20,217
Images: 2
pirate Re: Cheeki Rafiki

Dunno about the First.. but on the Oceanis's I've had they're easy enough to access.. drawing them is something else..
However.. if I drew them I'd do it one at a time and re-tap and insert new bolts of the appropriate size.. lets face it.. the thread on the bolt may look great.. but no way can you see/judge the thread in the keel.
If you do it.. do it right.
__________________


Born To Be Wild
boatman61 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-05-2014, 16:24   #84
Registered User

Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 1,970
Re: Cheeki Rafiki

A question for the Europeans on this board (I know the answer is "No" here in the US - but that enters into a political discussion)

Does CE have standards for keel attachment (width of keel, size, number and spacing of bolts, supporting grid)? Or can the boat builders make the keel root as thin as they'd like for a little less drag?

I know CE goes to great lengths to measure stability. I assume they only make that calculation with the keel attached.
__________________
CarlF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-05-2014, 16:36   #85
Registered User

Join Date: May 2014
Location: UK
Boat: O'Day 40
Posts: 34
Re: Cheeki Rafiki

Quote:
Originally Posted by downunder View Post
QUOTE "As for Loss of Keel – I’ve never drawn the bolts and the boat is 20+ years old. Are the bolts stainless steel? No idea. Last survey report “not able to access keel bolts – water in bilge”…duh? "

Are the keel bolts on a First 40 readily accessible for inspection and change out?
G'day mate from the Old Country!

I was being "boat non specific" but..

Anyone out there had their keel bolts ALL drawn (and tested) recently?
__________________
tonywatson58 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-05-2014, 16:39   #86
Freelance Delivery Skipper..
 
boatman61's Avatar

Community Sponsor
Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: PORTUGAL
Posts: 20,217
Images: 2
pirate Re: Cheeki Rafiki





So many variations... here's a DIY strengthening project...
Olson 25 Project Home Page
__________________


Born To Be Wild
boatman61 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-05-2014, 16:50   #87
Registered User
 
scuba0_1's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: naples
Boat: 2005 Catalina 350
Posts: 670
Re: Cheeki Rafiki

Quote:
Originally Posted by robert sailor View Post
That information begs the question...do any of the boat builders tell customers that their boat was designed to last for 5 years with extensive offshore use or 20-30 years if you are a weekend pilot?? It doesn't say much for future values or maybe it does. The better built boats will simply hold their value much longer.
I believe they build the boats and expect you to keep up maintenance based on use. I've seen 2 year old repo boats that look worse than 15 year old boats that the owner has kept up. I remember a car I saw going down the rd and his tire passed us. The whole tire. Might want to check that..

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app
__________________
scuba0_1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-05-2014, 18:22   #88
Registered User

Join Date: May 2014
Location: UK
Boat: O'Day 40
Posts: 34
Re: Cheeki Rafiki

Folks - everyone is well shaken up about this and thinking about our own boats I guess - I certainly am!
Without responding to any one particular post / forum (and I've looked at a few!!) grateful if you would consider the following collated suggestions - not all my own - but which I tend to concur …
1. The initial leaks were caused by a few (maybe 2or 3??) failed keel bolts?
2. Reason for bolt failure...I don't buy into this "previous grounding" argument I'm afraid
3. More likely metal fatigue?
4. Should we treat our keel bolts like our rigging? Like, change every 5 years?
5. Probably not...but on a production cruiser / racer which has been thrashed for (I've heard) ten years?
6. The British are responsible for recovering the wreck and the MAIB for analysing the cause
7. They should (ASAP) look at boats of the same type (and track record) as CF and draw some keel bolts
8. That said – metal fatigue is almost impossible to detect
9. Until that time, constructive (and non – abusive) discussion on forum such as these can only be a good thing
As a living (and to keep my darling boat as she's is accustomed) I do risk assessments on ships for a marine insurance company…it’s all about how to stop something bad happening but when it does, how to recover from it.
As for Loss of Keel – I’ve never drawn the bolts and the boat is 20+ years old. Are the bolts stainless steel? No idea. Last survey report “not able to access keel bolts – water in bilge”…duh?
Recovery Measures - still working on that one!
Something good comes from most maritime incidents and will for this I’m sure – hey – we’re all talking aren’t we?! x
__________________
tonywatson58 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-05-2014, 18:33   #89
Nearly an old salt
 
goboatingnow's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 13,649
Images: 3
Re: Cheeki Rafiki

Quote:
Originally Posted by CarlF View Post
A question for the Europeans on this board (I know the answer is "No" here in the US - but that enters into a political discussion)



Does CE have standards for keel attachment (width of keel, size, number and spacing of bolts, supporting grid)? Or can the boat builders make the keel root as thin as they'd like for a little less drag?



I know CE goes to great lengths to measure stability. I assume they only make that calculation with the keel attached.

No currently there is no scantlings standards for keels or their attachment. However ISO 12219 is in draft form ( since late 2010 ) and presumably will be ratified.

I posted a link in a previous post. But its important to point out that the RCD is a minimum standard.

Dave
__________________
Check out my new blog on smart boat technology, networking and gadgets for the connected sailor! - http://smartboats.tumblr.com
goboatingnow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-05-2014, 20:10   #90
Registered User
 
mbianka's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 2,125
Images: 1
Re: Cheeki Rafiki

Quote:
Originally Posted by tomfl View Post
Do you have a good idea about dealing with the dyneema fouling the prop.
Awww Dyneema floats don't cha know!

Seriously though people can argue that keels should not fall off. It seems if you have water coming in the bilge and you don't know where it's coming from you better suspect a keel problem. Better do something to buy some time including using a sling(s) to hold the keel up and reduce stress on whatever is still holding it on. If it just buys you time to get the life raft out it's time well spent. Doing nothing but, hoping should not be an option.
__________________

__________________
Capt. Mike
mbianka is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
UK yacht Cheeki Rafiki missing in mid-Atlantic 1000 islands General Sailing Forum 517 11-06-2014 16:32
Restart the search for the missing Cheeki Rafiki crew members. mikethedane General Sailing Forum 0 20-05-2014 08:47
Do You Think a Windvane Could Work on this Rafiki ? ShayW Deck hardware: Rigging, Sails & Hoisting 8 16-09-2011 13:13



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 20:17.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.