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24-05-2014, 14:17
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#16
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Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: NY
Boat: Panda/Baba 40
Posts: 868
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Re: Cheeki Rafiki
I think this would need to be determined to be a chronic problem first. I don't see any evidence of that.
Don't expect Bene to act out of the goodness of their heart, for the benefit of humanity. It's a company. The only way they would consider a recall is if the cost of litigation or bad press exceeded the cost of the recall.
Bolted on keels are a potential point of failure (like centerboards, like throughhulls, like...). Sell your Bene and buy something else if it worries you too much.
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24-05-2014, 14:19
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#17
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Registered User
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 13
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Re: Cheeki Rafiki
To the thread which asked the question, did my bolts need changing?
No, they do not need changing; but they do need watching.
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24-05-2014, 14:23
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#18
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Moderator Emeritus
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Seville London Eastbourne
Posts: 13,406
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Re: Cheeki Rafiki
Quote:
Originally Posted by gmthompson99
To the thread which asked the question, did my bolts need changing?
No, they do not need changing; but they do need watching.
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What does that mean?
__________________
- Never test how deep the water is with both feet -
10% of conflicts are due to different opinions. 90% by the tone of voice.
Raise your words, not your voice. It is rain that grows flowers, not thunder.
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24-05-2014, 14:30
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#19
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Saint Pete vanoy marina
Boat: 2017 Jeanneau 519
Posts: 690
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Re: Cheeki Rafiki
Quote:
Originally Posted by gmthompson99
To the thread which asked the question, did my bolts need changing?
No, they do not need changing; but they do need watching.
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+1
Sent from my SCH-I535 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app
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24-05-2014, 14:31
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#20
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Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Florida
Boat: Seawind 1000xl
Posts: 2,592
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Re: Cheeki Rafiki
Quote:
Originally Posted by highseas
A boarding ladder attached to underside of a hull,may increase chances of survival.
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I am having trouble envisioning this. If below the water line it sounds like a bad idea. Above the waterline I am not sure how it would help.
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24-05-2014, 14:36
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#21
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Senior Cruiser
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: PORTUGAL
Posts: 30,561
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Re: Cheeki Rafiki
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomfl
I am having trouble envisioning this. If below the water line it sounds like a bad idea. Above the waterline I am not sure how it would help.
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If not mistaken it was a tongue in cheek statement..
__________________
It was a dark and stormy night and the captain of the ship said.. "Hey Jim, spin us a yarn." and the yarn began like this.. "It was a dark and stormy night.."
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24-05-2014, 14:41
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#22
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Registered User
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 13
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Re: Cheeki Rafiki
TO/ Weavis
Comments appreciated. However, in general I like Beneteaus as a good value for money boat. I have sailed and raced Beneteaus in sizes from 24 feet to over 50 feet.
But allow me to restate my point: Beneteau designs during a certain time period were such that an emphasis was put on the integrity of the joining of the hull to the keel. Over time that emphasis have resulted in unusual events (loose connexions to the hull from the keel or a partial sheering). This should never happen on & 10 year old boat; The First 40.7's, because they are constantly stressed through racing are more susceptible than my cruising boat.
But that brings me to my conclusion. To prevent further possible tragedies, Beneteau should issue an advisory on what actions need to be taken. If a recall is needed, then so be it. Sailors will respect the company for that type of action.
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24-05-2014, 14:42
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#23
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Saint Pete vanoy marina
Boat: 2017 Jeanneau 519
Posts: 690
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Re: Cheeki Rafiki
Ok so don't install a ladder on the bottom of my boat. Check.. :what:
Sent from my SCH-I535 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app
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24-05-2014, 14:42
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#24
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Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 6,619
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Re: Cheeki Rafiki
Quote:
Originally Posted by gmthompson99
Read my thread. I am not blaming Beneteau. I am strongly suggesting that it would be in the interest of Beneteau and its dealer community and its boat owners to resolve what appears to be a significant design fault. It may not be and nothing is proven, but we should at least hope to hear a completely honest and full word or two from Beneteau so as to reassure us that their hulls are safe. Without hearing from them, I would say they are suspect.
You should be aware that the class is one of the largest at Cowes Week. I have raced on them there. They are a highly successful class and Cheeki was returning to Cowes. The manufacturer needs to talk to the sailing and racing community and be completely and honest even if to their perceived detriment as it will benefit all in the long run.
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If it was a design flaw, you'd have seen keels falling off left and right. A few keels falling off here or there could be lack of maintenance, prior damage that went uninspected or unrepaired, or being subjected to repeated abuse/forces/weather beyond that which it was designed for.
Funny that you used GM as an example. They co-designed the Duramax engine, which uses a Bosch common rail injection system. The injectors on the LB7 version engine have a well known design flaw which at the least results in poor performance and poor economy, and can result in catastrophic engine failure, like it has twice in my truck.
GM has NEVER issued a recall, even though the design flaw affects 100% of all LB7 engine trucks. They issued a Technical Service Bulletin to replace all 8 injectors with an updated style of injector if any 1 of them failed. They extended the warranty on the injectors from 100K mi and 5 yrs to 200K mi and 7 yrs after threat of a class action lawsuit. On the surface, this seems generous, but the added 2 yrs covered very few people, many of them didn't even reach 100K mi in 7 yrs.
This was a SAFETY issue, since catastrophic failure of the engine while towing (the primary purpose of a diesel engine truck, and both of my engine failures occurred while towing a 21,000 lb trailer) causes a loss of engine braking, regular brakes, steering, tow/haul transmission regenerative braking and the ability to propel the vehicle off to the side of the road if on a steep hill, yet GM never issued a recall, nor did the federal gov't force them to.
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24-05-2014, 15:05
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#25
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Moderator Emeritus
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Seville London Eastbourne
Posts: 13,406
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Re: Cheeki Rafiki
Quote:
Originally Posted by gmthompson99
TO/ Weavis
Comments appreciated. However, in general I like Beneteaus as a good value for money boat. I have sailed and raced Beneteaus in sizes from 24 feet to over 50 feet.
But allow me to restate my point: Beneteau designs during a certain time period were such that an emphasis was put on the integrity of the joining of the hull to the keel. Over time that emphasis have resulted in unusual events (loose connexions to the hull from the keel or a partial sheering). This should never happen on & 10 year old boat; The First 40.7's, because they are constantly stressed through racing are more susceptible than my cruising boat.
But that brings me to my conclusion. To prevent further possible tragedies, Beneteau should issue an advisory on what actions need to be taken. If a recall is needed, then so be it. Sailors will respect the company for that type of action.
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You have made a damning allegation that this is Beneteaus Fault. Do you have ANY facts to prove this? Can you give me a consistent history of failure on more than 90% of a boat production? How about 50%? Id settle for 15%?
All you have done is make a surmise, and a guess and looking to place blame somewhere for something that you "suspect".
ALL BOLTED TOGETHER STRUCTURES NEED WATCHING! Fact of life.
Until the pieces are examined and information gathered...... you are slandering a companys name and reputation.
How do you know that friendly Whale did not hit the vessel, or a submarine? How do you know previous damage was not present? How do you know the weather was so bad that it cross currented the vessel and dropped it from a great height? How do you know if Maintenance was not thorough?
YOU DONT. so please take this up with Beneteau. At this point they dont think a recall is necessary... that may change if they see fit or if evidence comes to their attention.
You did not have to replace your bolts.. FACT. Why Not? Conclusion.. ITS NOT A COMMON PROBLEM!
for me, Id rather know what REALLY happened than risk going to a French Jail for slander. Without proof you have nothing......
__________________
- Never test how deep the water is with both feet -
10% of conflicts are due to different opinions. 90% by the tone of voice.
Raise your words, not your voice. It is rain that grows flowers, not thunder.
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24-05-2014, 15:24
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#26
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Senior Cruiser
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: PORTUGAL
Posts: 30,561
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Re: Cheeki Rafiki
Quote:
Originally Posted by gmthompson99
Can you explain what you mean by anti-electrolysis protection beyond what we know of as an anode on the propeller shaft? The movement through water generates both positive and negative ions, electricity, which attack exposed metal.
Keel bolts are not supposed to be exposed; they are supposed to be protected and dry as they are deep in the hull and keel. The only contact they have with the atmosphere is in the bilge where they are bolted on with heavy wrenches.
Are you suggesting and have evidence that there is a process of electrolysis or even rust inside?
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Every boat I've owned I lift the floor boards and look in the bilge.. and there they are.. the tops of the keel bolts.. sometimes wet from condensation.. sometimes rain.. and the least favourite the occasional dollop of seawater..
A bare wire somewhere.. damp environment.. nowadays boats tend to just have an anode in the engine and the prop shaft.. what happened to the old hull anode..??
__________________
It was a dark and stormy night and the captain of the ship said.. "Hey Jim, spin us a yarn." and the yarn began like this.. "It was a dark and stormy night.."
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24-05-2014, 15:42
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#27
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Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Marina del Rey, California
Boat: President 43 Sportfish
Posts: 4,105
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Re: Cheeki Rafiki
From another thread:
Quote:
Failing keel bolts are a known issue on some Beneteau First series boats, at least the ones with cast iron keels. My personal experience has been with the French built First 435 E. In these rather shallow, flat-bottomed bilges, it is easy to see how the smallest amount of standing bilge water could accelerate the bolts' deterioration. That is, it would be easy to see IF you could easily access those areas completely.
What often happens is that the washers under the bolt heads disintegrate, first. This relieves tension on the bolts and allows corrosion to advance on the bolt, itself. The weight and pressure of the keel cause separation at the joint. In charter, this is likely exacerbated by more unreported/unrepaired groundings and less money spent on preventative maintenance. It is preferable to replace the bolts and washers every 8 years, or so. These bolts are cheap. But it takes a strong back and large breaker bar with cheater, and some dismantling of the interior, on particular models.
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__________________
1st rule of yachting: When a collision is unavoidable, aim for something cheap.
"whatever spare parts you bring, you'll never need"--goboatingnow
"Id rather drown than have computers take over my life."--d design
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24-05-2014, 16:30
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#28
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Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: on board, Australia
Boat: 11meter Power catamaran
Posts: 3,648
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Re: Cheeki Rafiki
Quote:
Originally Posted by gmthompson99
TO/ Weavis
Comments appreciated. However, in general I like Beneteaus as a good value for money boat. I have sailed and raced Beneteaus in sizes from 24 feet to over 50 feet.
But allow me to restate my point: Beneteau designs during a certain time period were such that an emphasis was put on the integrity of the joining of the hull to the keel. Over time that emphasis have resulted in unusual events (loose connexions to the hull from the keel or a partial sheering). This should never happen on & 10 year old boat; The First 40.7's, because they are constantly stressed through racing are more susceptible than my cruising boat.
But that brings me to my conclusion. To prevent further possible tragedies, Beneteau should issue an advisory on what actions need to be taken. If a recall is needed, then so be it. Sailors will respect the company for that type of action.
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Racing
You know racing puts more stress on any boat often to the point of breaking and with the number of vessels built is it a common occurrence? It is not the only racing monohull that has lost a keel and turned turtle.
I would expect no manufacturer would warrant nor should warrant a 10 year old racing boat.
The unfortunate event simply suggests to all First 40.7 vessels racing should consider a keel rebuild. Consider it racing induced maintaince.
Cheers
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25-05-2014, 02:50
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#29
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CF Adviser
Join Date: Oct 2007
Boat: Van Helleman Schooner 65ft StarGazer
Posts: 10,280
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Re: Cheeki Rafiki
Quote:
Originally Posted by downunder
Racing
The unfortunate event simply suggests to all First 40.7 vessels racing should consider a keel rebuild. Consider it racing induced maintaince.
Cheers
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I would go one further and apply that to ALL yachts with bolted on keels.
Never liked them...have tightened a few on famous maxis and I remember Simon Le Bon's Drum.
Not only racing but drydocked stresses can work away at this key appendage.
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25-05-2014, 03:00
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#30
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Senior Cruiser
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: PORTUGAL
Posts: 30,561
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Re: Cheeki Rafiki
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelagic
I would go one further and apply that to ALL yachts with bolted on keels.
Never liked them...have tightened a few on famous maxis and I remember Simon Le Bon's Drum.
Not only racing but drydocked stresses can work away at this key appendage.
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Very true.. but with many its outa sight.. outa mind.. or a design fault..
__________________
It was a dark and stormy night and the captain of the ship said.. "Hey Jim, spin us a yarn." and the yarn began like this.. "It was a dark and stormy night.."
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