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Old 24-05-2014, 15:17   #16
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Re: Cheeki Rafiki

I think this would need to be determined to be a chronic problem first. I don't see any evidence of that.

Don't expect Bene to act out of the goodness of their heart, for the benefit of humanity. It's a company. The only way they would consider a recall is if the cost of litigation or bad press exceeded the cost of the recall.

Bolted on keels are a potential point of failure (like centerboards, like throughhulls, like...). Sell your Bene and buy something else if it worries you too much.
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Old 24-05-2014, 15:19   #17
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Re: Cheeki Rafiki

To the thread which asked the question, did my bolts need changing?
No, they do not need changing; but they do need watching.
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Old 24-05-2014, 15:23   #18
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Re: Cheeki Rafiki

Quote:
Originally Posted by gmthompson99 View Post
To the thread which asked the question, did my bolts need changing?
No, they do not need changing; but they do need watching.
What does that mean?
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Old 24-05-2014, 15:30   #19
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Re: Cheeki Rafiki

Quote:
Originally Posted by gmthompson99 View Post
To the thread which asked the question, did my bolts need changing?
No, they do not need changing; but they do need watching.
+1

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Old 24-05-2014, 15:31   #20
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Re: Cheeki Rafiki

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Originally Posted by highseas View Post
A boarding ladder attached to underside of a hull,may increase chances of survival.
I am having trouble envisioning this. If below the water line it sounds like a bad idea. Above the waterline I am not sure how it would help.
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Old 24-05-2014, 15:36   #21
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pirate Re: Cheeki Rafiki

Quote:
Originally Posted by tomfl View Post
I am having trouble envisioning this. If below the water line it sounds like a bad idea. Above the waterline I am not sure how it would help.
If not mistaken it was a tongue in cheek statement..
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Old 24-05-2014, 15:41   #22
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Re: Cheeki Rafiki

TO/ Weavis

Comments appreciated. However, in general I like Beneteaus as a good value for money boat. I have sailed and raced Beneteaus in sizes from 24 feet to over 50 feet.
But allow me to restate my point: Beneteau designs during a certain time period were such that an emphasis was put on the integrity of the joining of the hull to the keel. Over time that emphasis have resulted in unusual events (loose connexions to the hull from the keel or a partial sheering). This should never happen on & 10 year old boat; The First 40.7's, because they are constantly stressed through racing are more susceptible than my cruising boat.
But that brings me to my conclusion. To prevent further possible tragedies, Beneteau should issue an advisory on what actions need to be taken. If a recall is needed, then so be it. Sailors will respect the company for that type of action.
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Old 24-05-2014, 15:42   #23
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Re: Cheeki Rafiki

Ok so don't install a ladder on the bottom of my boat. Check.. :what:

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Old 24-05-2014, 15:42   #24
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Re: Cheeki Rafiki

Quote:
Originally Posted by gmthompson99 View Post
Read my thread. I am not blaming Beneteau. I am strongly suggesting that it would be in the interest of Beneteau and its dealer community and its boat owners to resolve what appears to be a significant design fault. It may not be and nothing is proven, but we should at least hope to hear a completely honest and full word or two from Beneteau so as to reassure us that their hulls are safe. Without hearing from them, I would say they are suspect.

You should be aware that the class is one of the largest at Cowes Week. I have raced on them there. They are a highly successful class and Cheeki was returning to Cowes. The manufacturer needs to talk to the sailing and racing community and be completely and honest even if to their perceived detriment as it will benefit all in the long run.
If it was a design flaw, you'd have seen keels falling off left and right. A few keels falling off here or there could be lack of maintenance, prior damage that went uninspected or unrepaired, or being subjected to repeated abuse/forces/weather beyond that which it was designed for.


Funny that you used GM as an example. They co-designed the Duramax engine, which uses a Bosch common rail injection system. The injectors on the LB7 version engine have a well known design flaw which at the least results in poor performance and poor economy, and can result in catastrophic engine failure, like it has twice in my truck.

GM has NEVER issued a recall, even though the design flaw affects 100% of all LB7 engine trucks. They issued a Technical Service Bulletin to replace all 8 injectors with an updated style of injector if any 1 of them failed. They extended the warranty on the injectors from 100K mi and 5 yrs to 200K mi and 7 yrs after threat of a class action lawsuit. On the surface, this seems generous, but the added 2 yrs covered very few people, many of them didn't even reach 100K mi in 7 yrs.

This was a SAFETY issue, since catastrophic failure of the engine while towing (the primary purpose of a diesel engine truck, and both of my engine failures occurred while towing a 21,000 lb trailer) causes a loss of engine braking, regular brakes, steering, tow/haul transmission regenerative braking and the ability to propel the vehicle off to the side of the road if on a steep hill, yet GM never issued a recall, nor did the federal gov't force them to.
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Old 24-05-2014, 16:05   #25
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Re: Cheeki Rafiki

Quote:
Originally Posted by gmthompson99 View Post
TO/ Weavis

Comments appreciated. However, in general I like Beneteaus as a good value for money boat. I have sailed and raced Beneteaus in sizes from 24 feet to over 50 feet.
But allow me to restate my point: Beneteau designs during a certain time period were such that an emphasis was put on the integrity of the joining of the hull to the keel. Over time that emphasis have resulted in unusual events (loose connexions to the hull from the keel or a partial sheering). This should never happen on & 10 year old boat; The First 40.7's, because they are constantly stressed through racing are more susceptible than my cruising boat.
But that brings me to my conclusion. To prevent further possible tragedies, Beneteau should issue an advisory on what actions need to be taken. If a recall is needed, then so be it. Sailors will respect the company for that type of action.
You have made a damning allegation that this is Beneteaus Fault. Do you have ANY facts to prove this? Can you give me a consistent history of failure on more than 90% of a boat production? How about 50%? Id settle for 15%?

All you have done is make a surmise, and a guess and looking to place blame somewhere for something that you "suspect".

ALL BOLTED TOGETHER STRUCTURES NEED WATCHING! Fact of life.

Until the pieces are examined and information gathered...... you are slandering a companys name and reputation.

How do you know that friendly Whale did not hit the vessel, or a submarine? How do you know previous damage was not present? How do you know the weather was so bad that it cross currented the vessel and dropped it from a great height? How do you know if Maintenance was not thorough?

YOU DONT. so please take this up with Beneteau. At this point they dont think a recall is necessary... that may change if they see fit or if evidence comes to their attention.

You did not have to replace your bolts.. FACT. Why Not? Conclusion.. ITS NOT A COMMON PROBLEM!

for me, Id rather know what REALLY happened than risk going to a French Jail for slander. Without proof you have nothing......
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Old 24-05-2014, 16:24   #26
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pirate Re: Cheeki Rafiki

Quote:
Originally Posted by gmthompson99 View Post
Can you explain what you mean by anti-electrolysis protection beyond what we know of as an anode on the propeller shaft? The movement through water generates both positive and negative ions, electricity, which attack exposed metal.
Keel bolts are not supposed to be exposed; they are supposed to be protected and dry as they are deep in the hull and keel. The only contact they have with the atmosphere is in the bilge where they are bolted on with heavy wrenches.
Are you suggesting and have evidence that there is a process of electrolysis or even rust inside?
Every boat I've owned I lift the floor boards and look in the bilge.. and there they are.. the tops of the keel bolts.. sometimes wet from condensation.. sometimes rain.. and the least favourite the occasional dollop of seawater..
A bare wire somewhere.. damp environment.. nowadays boats tend to just have an anode in the engine and the prop shaft.. what happened to the old hull anode..??
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Old 24-05-2014, 16:42   #27
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Re: Cheeki Rafiki

From another thread:

Quote:
Failing keel bolts are a known issue on some Beneteau First series boats, at least the ones with cast iron keels. My personal experience has been with the French built First 435 E. In these rather shallow, flat-bottomed bilges, it is easy to see how the smallest amount of standing bilge water could accelerate the bolts' deterioration. That is, it would be easy to see IF you could easily access those areas completely.

What often happens is that the washers under the bolt heads disintegrate, first. This relieves tension on the bolts and allows corrosion to advance on the bolt, itself. The weight and pressure of the keel cause separation at the joint. In charter, this is likely exacerbated by more unreported/unrepaired groundings and less money spent on preventative maintenance. It is preferable to replace the bolts and washers every 8 years, or so. These bolts are cheap. But it takes a strong back and large breaker bar with cheater, and some dismantling of the interior, on particular models.
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Old 24-05-2014, 17:30   #28
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Re: Cheeki Rafiki

Quote:
Originally Posted by gmthompson99 View Post
TO/ Weavis

Comments appreciated. However, in general I like Beneteaus as a good value for money boat. I have sailed and raced Beneteaus in sizes from 24 feet to over 50 feet.
But allow me to restate my point: Beneteau designs during a certain time period were such that an emphasis was put on the integrity of the joining of the hull to the keel. Over time that emphasis have resulted in unusual events (loose connexions to the hull from the keel or a partial sheering). This should never happen on & 10 year old boat; The First 40.7's, because they are constantly stressed through racing are more susceptible than my cruising boat.
But that brings me to my conclusion. To prevent further possible tragedies, Beneteau should issue an advisory on what actions need to be taken. If a recall is needed, then so be it. Sailors will respect the company for that type of action.
Racing

You know racing puts more stress on any boat often to the point of breaking and with the number of vessels built is it a common occurrence? It is not the only racing monohull that has lost a keel and turned turtle.

I would expect no manufacturer would warrant nor should warrant a 10 year old racing boat.

The unfortunate event simply suggests to all First 40.7 vessels racing should consider a keel rebuild. Consider it racing induced maintaince.

Cheers
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Old 25-05-2014, 03:50   #29
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Re: Cheeki Rafiki

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Originally Posted by downunder View Post
Racing

The unfortunate event simply suggests to all First 40.7 vessels racing should consider a keel rebuild. Consider it racing induced maintaince.

Cheers
I would go one further and apply that to ALL yachts with bolted on keels.

Never liked them...have tightened a few on famous maxis and I remember Simon Le Bon's Drum.

Not only racing but drydocked stresses can work away at this key appendage.
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Old 25-05-2014, 04:00   #30
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pirate Re: Cheeki Rafiki

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelagic View Post
I would go one further and apply that to ALL yachts with bolted on keels.

Never liked them...have tightened a few on famous maxis and I remember Simon Le Bon's Drum.

Not only racing but drydocked stresses can work away at this key appendage.
Very true.. but with many its outa sight.. outa mind.. or a design fault..
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