Cheaper Old Boats: False Economy ?

[Solitude]

Kop en Maxi eller Albin!

[hoppy]

Originally Posted by Solitude

Kop en Maxi eller Albin!

They just don't excite me

[Curmudgeon]

You need to look at the cost of ownership as well as the cost of maintenance. I peruse yachtworld regularly (can't resist boat porn) and have come to several conclusions:

1. It makes no financial sense to buy a brand new boat. It will depreciate 20-30 percent as soon as you sail it a few times.

2. Many newer production boats do not maintain their value, no matter how well they are maintained. The used boat market is saturated with Hunters, Beneteaus, Catalinas and the like. Fairly late model ex-charter boats are going for a song in the BVIs.

3. It may be pure snobbery, but the "Rolls Royce" type boats (e.g. Morris, Hinckley) do hold their value when well maintained.

So when running the numbers, it seems to me that the overall cost of ownership of a good quality older boat is likely to be lower when you factor in resale value, even though the initial cost of a refit may be higher.

[LtBrett]

Look at it in terms of equipment life cycles. A year 2000 boat is by no means new and a lot of this new vs. old debate doesn't apply in your case. In fact, many of her systems should be almost fully depreciated. An older boat may have gone through an upgrade cycle and may have newer/better gear onboard. The last thing you want to do is spend a premium for a newer boat only to find you have to replace the standing rigging, rebuild the engine and genny, and make a bunch of high dollar repairs. What other posters have advised (in different words) is to evaluate the stage of the life cycle of the various pieces of equipment on your boat and value them accordingly. A year 2000 boat that has been regularly used may well be ready for major overhaul.

As an aside, I went with the old boat--not for cost savings, but for reliability. A hull that's been tested for over 20 years and shows no weakness is absolutely bullet proof. You can't say the same for a factory new hull that hasn't stood the test of time. As for onboard systems, I gradually replaced mine with new. I also did a full interior and exterior paint job, and replaced all canvas and upholstery. So now I've got a semi-custom yacht with new, in-warranty equipment and a battle-tested hull. As was mentioned, I can't sell her for what I put in. You'd do well to buy a boat someone competently restored.

Brett

[MarkJ]

Originally Posted by Curmudgeon

1. It makes no financial sense to buy a brand new boat. It will depreciate 20-30 percent as soon as you sail it a few times.

.

Yes, but even an old curmudgeon like you would have bought a new car sometime in your life and relished the new car smell as you ripped the protective plastic off the seat and excitedly read the instruction manual for the first (and last) time. How you listened to the non-existent engine noise as the new engine hispered into life and how the suspension felt so wonderfully springy. Remember how proud you were when you pulled up at the Gas station first time to fell 'er up, and your pride didn't even slip when you pulled in the side opposite the filler hole: 'its brand new' you explain.

Yes, it might not make financial sense but can you imagine going to the factory each day and watching your new 'ultimate' boat of your dreams slowly coming to life? That special bottle of plonk when you launch her? That moment when you finally step aboard and all others have got off so you and you alone can savor being captain of your finest commission?

Ain't that worth a few bucks?



Mark

[BeenThereAteIt]

Hi Hoppy:

An older boat is only a false economy if you try to restore the boat to
like new condition. Restore a sailboat to good enough condition & you'll
have money left over to enjoy your sailing life. Sooooooo many cruisers
say they wish they had purchased a smaller or less expensive boat.

Old sails in good enough shape might be a good economy. For they allow
you to keep sailing instead of giving up the dream way to soon. Some
countries have way better prices on sails & other gear than you may find
at home. If you feel you must upgrade this or that maybe wait untill your
in a location which makes sense$$$$.

So consider keeping any refit as simple as possible. Balance everything out to
decide what really matters. Lots of people add gear & do work they really
don't need to do. Depreciation means recovering less than 50% of the
bucks you pour into any boat. An old boat has the same sunset view as any
expensive boat. Your boating expierence is more about who your with than
which boat your on.

Respectfully,
Paul

[MarkJ]

Originally Posted by BeenThereAteIt

Respectfully,

Crikey! Whats this forum coming to!?

[gr8trn]

Cool discussion really, I am not cruising, just weekends for now. I have a new boat. Like MarkJ said, love the smell. Sold the house and really not confident in my skills to upgrade the classic older boat anyway. I am enjoying any process that comes up like a leaky hydraulic cylinder or keeping the deck swabbed
My neighbors are working on their 20+ year old Vagobond, they are having a blast as well. They are planning on dropping the lines as soon as she is paid for, I am not planning on dropping the lines for anymore than two to four weeks. We are having the times of our lives. Two ways to do it that's all really. If you ask either on of us, we are glad we are doing it the way we are doing it.
For OP, you gotta figure out what are you in to, you like sailing them and washing them, or do you like fixing them so you can sail them?
It' all good for sure.
Greg

[anotherT34C]

Originally Posted by MarkJ

Ain't that worth a few bucks?

It is indeed. How many, though?

[hoppy]

Originally Posted by MarkJ

Yes, it might not make financial sense but can you imagine going to the factory each day and watching your new 'ultimate' boat of your dreams slowly coming to life? That special bottle of plonk when you launch her? That moment when you finally step aboard and all others have got off so you and you alone can savor being captain of your finest commission?

Ain't that worth a few bucks?

I agree 100%... It was nice when I bought my only new car (OMG) 20 years ago. It was not so nice when I sold it 4 years later for about 1/3 of the purchase price, and Honda's hold their value better than other brands.

I think if you are going to scrimp and save to be able to afford the boat, the "sail out of the showroom" price drop is going to hurt you. I think new is better for companies or people who could easily afford more expensive.

I try to look at the "what if something happens" scenario and I need to sell the boat/car in 6 months rather than 5 or 10 years down the track and new just does not compute for me sadly. I have to do this as I have worked as a consultant for the past 12 years and I am always 1 step away from being unemployed Right now I am 11 working days from it right now and my client whilst they say the want me has not shown up with a contract (large slow acting bureaucratic orgs ) Maybe I'll be looking for 30 footers soon and have plenty of time to sail it though

[Hurricane Harry]

I sail 30 year old boat thats well kept. Swedish build, "We build them the way we do because we have to". If its a solid built well kept boat, thats been upgraded through the years, I see no problem with it. VP engine from 2000 new sails 09. If eye is kept on things and replaced and fixed an old or used boat is preferred from my view. Spend monies on cruising instead. I prefer long keel on the oceans for comfort. There is a reason why boats have had long keel for 5000yrs or more.
But taste is different.
Things are gonna break no matter what new or used.
Good Luck
Harry

[Curmudgeon]

I've heard people say that even with brand new boats there are usually things that are not quite right, especially with boats built to a price point, and even if you are willing to deal with the immediate depreciation, you still may be better off buying a 2-3 year-old boat.

Like Hurricane Harry, I have an overbuilt, full keel boat. It's 15 years old. Yes, things break, most recently my electric windlass. But that happens on every boat, even the new ones.

[s/v Moondancer]

Our 24yr-old boat cost less than 1/3 the cost of a new one. It had been upgraded continuously with a major refit 7-8 yrs ago, new engine, gen set, A/C and awlgrip paint job and new windlass and bow thruster 2 yrs ago, we spend more on maintenace than a new boat but then we have lots to play with compared with the cost of a new boat.

Additionally our boat cost what a new boat would depreciate in it's first 3-5 yrs so we will loose less on resale compared with a new boat
It is a matter of finding the right boat that has been maintained continuously and professionally.

[nautical62]

It's buying used, basic cars that allows me to buy used, basic boats. Actually, a new boat in one case, but since it's in charter, the economics are very different.

[Not Sure]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

I truly believe …the boat finds you!

After breathing and sleeping over the many design, price and age options you have, there comes a point where, as Paul says, you no longer want to stay in the game and you commit to a lady…wrinkles and all.

Absolutely.

New vs old:
If one plans on doing much of the work needed on the boat themself, a sound boat that simply needs TLC is better/cheaper. If, however, one is going to be paying for work done to the boat, the newer (and less work needed) the better.

The best thing that you can do is to educate yourself about the boats you are looking at, known problems with that make/model, etc., and otherwise be capable enough to do a 'pre-survey' yourself on the boat before thinking about bringing in the professional(s).