Changing upper bound of boat size considered suitable for couples

[redhead]

Originally Posted by Uricanejack

I quite happily single hand my 35ft boat.
I find it a sise which works very well for my wife and I. Limited on comforts but it’s an old boat.
A little small for the whole family. Who have left anyway.

I would ask the big boat sailors.

How often do you sail your bigger boats. just as a couple out for a sail.
Not asking about taking extra people on for longer passages. Just about taking a day to go from here to there or someplace and back again.
With just the two of you.

Just wondering about the reality of cruising on bigger boats. Are you happy sailing them with only the two of you. Or do you find you are always looking for friends and others to crew.

We've never sailed this boat with anymore than the two of us. It never occurred to us. We put in 1100 nm last summer in a new ocean and learning the boat's wants and needs. We did fine. After tonight's gale dies down we're going to the San Juan's for a few days. We have heat, water, food and what more do we need? Winter cruising in the Pacific Northwest is not for everyone, but we enjoy it. Our plans are to cruise north to Alaska next summer and we plan to do it with just ourselves. AND the autopilot has it's good days and bad - I actually like hand steering.

Point being I like a big boat, you don't. Other than an interesting thread on a winter's day/night, who cares? I love people who sneer and throw insults at others just because we don't all have the same size boat, the same number of crew, the same cruising ground, and apparently, the same choice of food. Ridiculous, some would say....

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by hpeer

I’ve seen too many where the folks act like they e been on duty for 16 hours straight.

Maybe just bad luck but I’ve seen enough incompetence and malfeasance in hospitals to last a life time.

I suggest you return to the topic being discussed.

[roland stockham]

Don't know if it is still true but a survey in the 80's showed that livaboards that stayed away more than 3 years had on average boats about 25% smaller than those staying out less than 3 years. The old saying that the sea teaches how little you need not how much.
The other big factor is cost. Long term voyaging prior to the 80's was generally for the adventurous and independent. Now it seams more a retirement option for the rich, Cash in the family home and go for an RV or a boat then retire to an ex-pat community somewhere cheap and warm

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by roland stockham

Don't know if it is still true but a survey in the 80's showed that livaboards that stayed away more than 3 years had on average boats about 25% smaller than those staying out less than 3 years. The old saying that the sea teaches how little you need not how much.
The other big factor is cost. Long term voyaging prior to the 80's was generally for the adventurous and independent. Now it seams more a retirement option for the rich, Cash in the family home and go for an RV or a boat then retire to an ex-pat community somewhere cheap and warm

Roland,

That was 40 years ago, a lot has changed. A couple of significant changes I’ve noticed and posted previously, are that people today seem to have a much shorter attention span with regards to interests, activities and hobbies. The vast majority of the boaters we meet will quit within two years, some within a year, then onto another interest. They also insist on being “connected” at all times while on the boat and cannot go without TV, internet or cellular service for even a day or two.

Right now, I’m looking at adding an internet dish dome in addition to the Dish TV dome we already have so that charter guests can remain “connected.” My wife and I don’t even watch TV, but that’s what people want and expect to have these days. 24/7/365

And God forbid if their internet, TV or cellular service is ever interupted.....

[Don C L]

I can't tell if this thread is making me feel very inferior and inadequate or proud for being so frugal and saving so much money!

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by Don C L

I can't tell if this thread is making me feel very inferior and inadequate or proud for being so frugal and saving so much money!

Sometimes having a larger boat can actually be more frugal if it allows the owner to go places and put the boat to use in ways that a smaller size boat would not allow. If the boat was too small for instance, it might not get used at all by not serving the owner’s needs; the owner might in fact end up quitting. For example, back in our 20’s we enjoyed a 20ft O’Day for three years, but then along came a business and children and the boat no longer served our needs..... so it sat unused in our driveway for the next five years. Another example: Seven years ago my good friend purchased a used 22ft Santana sailboat in good condition for around $5000; since that day his boat has been used twice. Why? Because it doesn't suit his family's needs, his wife would like some comforts and his now teenage children don't wanna go sailing.

On the other hand, if your current boat serves your present needs... congratulations! But as far as this thread goes, as I understand the topic, it’s asking: Why is boat size increasing?

And I’m just offering up my opinions, which might differ from those of other participants based on my personal experience.

[B23iL23]

Hi Ann,
I've done the frugal cruising - I don't like it. There are certain things that I think as such basics these days that I want (maybe not "need") in a boat.



I'm in the middle of buying my new boat - It's got a washing machine, AC, a 17KW Onan genset feeding into 1200 Ah of LI batteries, a watermaker that pushes out 300 liters an hour, and a diesel tank with 1200 ltrs to make all this work. Too much? Maybe but it will mean less decisions, less diversions and therefore more fun. I want to be able to cruise and not have to think about getting water, or finding a laundry, or be on edge because one of the boys is using too much water in the shower - I will have my 2 teenage boys on board and fun will be the #1 agenda item, everything else with be down the list.

I've done the cruising with lots of water cans on deck, trips ashore in the dingy to refill or washing in salt water when too far from land. That's the part of cruising I don't want again. Instead I want to lie in the cockpit watching the world and read a book, swim with the boys or good diving (forgot the compressor in the sail locker up front!) with the washing machine doing it's job down below.

My boat is bigger than I need but I have plans for it when the day comes that I can't or don't want to go cruising any more. It will cost a lot and a lot to maintain but it's new and lots of warranty on everything and I wouldn't be getting into this to do everything on a budget.

Originally Posted by JPA Cate

B23iL23 asked why must we sacrifice?

To me, the question itself is really representative of where a number of potential cruisers are at. We mustn't, but one does choose to make compromises when limited $$ are part of the equation.

Basically, at least to me, the answer to that question lies in another question: how much time and how much money do you have, what are your boat maintenance skills, and what are your cruising goals? I know it's a three part question, but it is all inter-related. The larger and more complex it is, the more it costs in time and $$ for repairs and updating, especially with brand new boats that often don't come all right from the factories...which is why many new owners will not take delivery until the new boat passes survey.

Here's an example of a modern day "sacrifice". I do not have a washing machine on board. The idea would have been ludicrous 40 yrs. ago, for all but the largest cruising boats. Why I have never asked Jim to add a washing machine for this boat is more complicated. To be able to wash at will, we would also need to add a genset and a watermaker. [weight, complication] By the time the additional holes in the boat have been made and the layout modified, and the hanging locker and its contents done away with (gotta make space for washi-moto), you're talking a big chunk of money, time, frustration with waiting on others for deliveries and job completion, marina bills, etc. So for me, even though it is theoretically possible it could be added, the trade off of other values leads me away from the washing machine. One makes COMPROMISES, because going smaller, with less stuff means you can get out there and explore and have an extraordinary level of freedom and satisfaction without spending the big bucks that some others choose to spend.

There are many costs of boat ownership that are ongoing: marina fees or mooring fees many places, insurances of various kinds, but the most noxious of all, is hanging around depending on someone else who is already behind schedule to finish up, whether it is repairs, re-fits, or installing new *stuff*. Way better if you can get stuck into it and do it yourself. Which for "professional people" means what they might consider a step down, to "mechanic-ing" or "electrician-ing" or "plumber-ing." So, imho, some professionals look down on the trades and are disinterested to learn. They pay, in terms of time spent not sailing, not enjoying freedom, lying in marinas overseeing jobs, jobs that multiply with the complexity of the boat.

It is wisdom to go small and simple, where those values appeal to you.

Ann

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by Uricanejack

I quite happily single hand my 35ft boat.
I find it a sise which works very well for my wife and I. Limited on comforts but it’s an old boat.
A little small for the whole family. Who have left anyway.

I would ask the big boat sailors.

How often do you sail your bigger boats. just as a couple out for a sail.
Not asking about taking extra people on for longer passages. Just about taking a day to go from here to there or someplace and back again.
With just the two of you.

Just wondering about the reality of cruising on bigger boats. Are you happy sailing them with only the two of you. Or do you find you are always looking for friends and others to crew.

Sheesh, give it a rest. Any boat can be set up for single handing regardless of size. Sail handling gear increases with the size of the boat so working loads are generally not that different.

Ours is 55 foot long (and 24 wide) and we usually sail just the two of us - and one is lying back and suntanning - as often as we can,, generally every second weekend and every long weekend, plus several longer coastal cruises and offshore passages each year to the islands. When we have guests we don’t need them to do anything to help running the boat. One or two crew for passages are great to get more sleep - nothing to do with the size of the boat. The only time two people are almost necessary is docking in a breeze.

The hardest physical work is hoisting the mainsail - despite the 2:1 halyard its 30 seconds of deep squats to get the main up until winching the last metre of hoist. Alternatively it’s a minute of winching. One day a Winchrite or right angle drill will be nice.

The cruising is just fine, thanks for asking.

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by fxykty

Sheesh, give it a rest. Any boat can be set up for single handing regardless of size. .

I remember not that long ago a petite English girl sailing a huge 75 ft trimaran around the globe singlehanded yet apparently men who reckon they know boats can't manage it.

. Ellen MacArthur’s 23m (75ft) trimaran B&Q CASTORAMA was built at Boatspeed in Australia in 2004 specifically to break the single-handed around the world record. In 2005 MacArthur passed the Lizard Point in a new solo record time of 71 days, 14 hours.

Nigel Irens worked closely with MacArthur to create an ocean racing yacht that she could sail to the boat’s full potential.

B&Q - Nigel Irens Design

[elandra65]

Sorry if I am repeating what has been said But i don't have time to wade through 9 pages.

Weight has a lot to do with manageability and boats now are lighter in general for a given size. That means similar effort to sail a modern 50 footer as an old 42 footer as rig etc etc is comparable. The other point is I have never in my life seen yachts so affordable. I don't mean new boats but good used boats are cheap compared to 30years ago. Back in the 70s and 80s a cruising yacht took years of saving money and lots of work. Nowadays as well many baby boomers are cashed up and retiring with significant funds. As one poster said though this phenomenon won't last as future generations are likely to have it harder.

Andrew

[DeValency]

We had this long discussion here lately on another thread. It is a matter of self preferences, budget and plans. Our preferences change over the years and our budgets - for sure... At this time, I think an ideal boat for a couple would be a 44-47', modern with all furling sails, power winches, wide transom and aft cabin etc. etc. 15 years ago I thought my ideal cruiser would be a 35-38' with much less of the above...
My point is that I enjoy daysailing and racing on almost anything, ranging from a Laser to my Farr 40, but for cruising I do want a maximum comfort, almost as I have at home - otherwise why?...

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

Sometimes having a larger boat can actually be more frugal if it allows the owner to go places and put the boat to use in ways that a smaller size boat would not allow.

No way!

For example, if you have a sense of adventure you could sail your 27' -36' boat that you paid maybe $10K - $40K for to anyplace that you could sail your 50' plus boat which may cost $200K - $300K or more

After you reach your destination, you could put the boat in a slip and check into one of the nicest hotels in the area and hangout for a few weeks with the money you would have saved just by using your good old smaller boat

[DeValency]

Originally Posted by thomm225

No way!

For example, if you have a sense of adventure you could sail your 27' -36' boat that you paid maybe $10K - $40K for to anyplace that you could sail your 50' plus boat which may cost $200K - $300K or more

After you reach your destination, you could put the boat in a slip and check into one of the nicest hotels in the area and hangout for a few weeks with the money you would have saved just by using your good old smaller boat

****
That's a nice theory but my experience tells me that cruisers usually spend the most they can afford (and sometimes way more than that) on buying the best boat they can for the budget. So what we see all around is that smaller cheaper boats' sailors stay on board while at least half of those bigger boats (say 45'+) will stay ashore at least for part of the time and almost all the mega yachts owners...

That's life... and it is the same rule anywhere on land as well.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Simi 60

I remember not that long ago a petite English girl sailing a huge 75 ft trimaran around the globe singlehanded yet apparently men who reckon they know boats can't manage it.

There are always extreme boats at extreme prices built for one purpose.. and the very few with the mental and physical fitness, ambition and skills to take on the task.
However the question is about the size of cruising boats on average today, why they have increased.. and are they safely manageable by a couple.
I can sail and deliver them just fine.. up to 24m or 80GT..
I just have no desire to own one.
I am very happy you all do though.. I get to sail some sweet boats.

[hpeer]

If they are staying ashore are they Cruisers?

I don’t know if boat sizes for active Cruisers is going up or down. Damn hard to tell. Even here in St Martin, with so many gig boats, what percentage of them are in charter? I don’t think charter should count because it’s only a very limited, high intensity, event. It’s not a life style.

To each his own, and clearly nobody want to buy a new boat designed like our boat. But we like it and are happy.

My guess is that as we age we will be looking for something that is more on one level. Mobility may we’ll become our challenge. Then we may look for a newer design used boat that doesn’t need to be as sea worthy, or capable of freezing in, and more shallow draft. Hopefully that’s a long way off.