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Old 12-01-2019, 04:38   #226
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Re: Changing upper bound of boat size considered suitable for couples

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Why.??? You should be able to do that as you tack.. Sheet the main in by hand as the nose comes up to the wind then ease out to suit as you approach the new heading. Leaves you free to concentrate on the flogging jib and getting that sheeted while still being powered by the main.
Assuming I understood your post.
It's early here.

Come to think of it, I don't touch the main during tacks. (when not racing) I was talking jib but half asleep thinking small sails.

I sheet the jib in by hand and use the winch handle if the wind is strong enough for the last foot or so
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Old 12-01-2019, 04:56   #227
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pirate Re: Changing upper bound of boat size considered suitable for couples

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It's early here.

Come to think of it, I don't touch the main during tacks. (when not racing) I was talking jib but half asleep thinking small sails.

I sheet the jib in by hand and use the winch handle if the wind is strong enough for the last foot or so
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Old 12-01-2019, 04:59   #228
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Re: Changing upper bound of boat size considered suitable for couples

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I certainly would not usually give a hoot about appearances. Safety, reliability & functionality are hard enough to stay on top of.

25-30' is plenty, **for me** less is more, no desire for home level mod cons or comfort.

No judgments on others' choices either, do what you like with your money.
You been lurking our boat? Functions solid, cosmetics? LOL

Here is another question regarding the size evolution.

I think there is pretty wide agreement that today’s 40’er is much more heavily engineered, more roomie, and lighter than an average 40 year old, 1978 model.

Now that 1978 model has been beat around for 40 years and is still ticking, if even modestly maintained.

How will the common 2018 boat look in 2058? Will the hull and rig still be sea worthy? Or will all those stress cycles take their toll?

Our 20 ton 1985 steel cutter has 12 shrouds sharing the load. Today’s 20 ton production boat has 3, 4, or 5. Now that’s a pretty extreamly example and probably not a fair comparison.

Maybe someone who know more than me can pick a a popular mid range production boat of say 15 tons and compare it to a 30-40 year old 15 ton production boat and see how they fare.

My guess, from some survey threads I’ve read, is that today’s boats are simply not built to last as the oldies were. Don’t know if that true or an old wives tale.
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Old 12-01-2019, 05:28   #229
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pirate Re: Changing upper bound of boat size considered suitable for couples

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You been lurking our boat? Functions solid, cosmetics? LOL

Here is another question regarding the size evolution.

I think there is pretty wide agreement that todayís 40íer is much more heavily engineered, more roomie, and lighter than an average 40 year old, 1978 model.

Now that 1978 model has been beat around for 40 years and is still ticking, if even modestly maintained.

How will the common 2018 boat look in 2058? Will the hull and rig still be sea worthy? Or will all those stress cycles take their toll?

Our 20 ton 1985 steel cutter has 12 shrouds sharing the load. Todayís 20 ton production boat has 3, 4, or 5. Now thatís a pretty extreamly example and probably not a fair comparison.

Maybe someone who know more than me can pick a a popular mid range production boat of say 15 tons and compare it to a 30-40 year old 15 ton production boat and see how they fare.

My guess, from some survey threads Iíve read, is that todayís boats are simply not built to last as the oldies were. Donít know if that true or an old wives tale.
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Old 12-01-2019, 06:31   #230
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Re: Changing upper bound of boat size considered suitable for couples

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I'm sorry but that's just plain wrong. A marine head on a larger boat costs the same amount as on a much smaller boat, the same with everything else. Proportionally, the smaller boat costs more. The only difficulty we've found in owning a larger sized boat is finding haul out facilities in Northern North America where the marine industry seems to cater to boats under 50 feet, elsewhere it's not a problem.
Not true about the head. My 36 footer has 1 manual head. Which I replaced myself at a cost of under $150. How many heads do you have on a 53 footer? And most likely electric. You do the math.

Also the marina I use for winter storage cant handle boats larger then 40' and deeper then about 6'. As a result their prices are significantly less then in those places which can handle larger/deeper boats.

I learned to sail on Cal/Oday 39 and still think it is a perfect size for me and my needs if I ever do the cruising/liveaboard thing. Might even stay on my 36' footer if my gf cant manage work from the boat thingy and I will be there by myself most of the time.

But having owned a bunch of boats in 25-28 range I can confirm that the costs do go up significantly, exponentially for 36 vs 25. But so does comfort, etc. But I did daysail a lot more with those 25-28 then with 36 or 39.

Its funny how people just refuse to see the obvious and keep arguing the opposite pov.
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Old 12-01-2019, 06:47   #231
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Re: Changing upper bound of boat size considered suitable for couples

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I don’t follow… costs can certainly rise linearly. It is the multi-dimensional natural of boats (areas, volumes) which drive costs exponentially.

I don’t know why this appears contentious for some of you. The benefits of increasing LOA can also be said to increase exponentially. Boat volume, sail area, tankage volume, living space, deck area … all these things increase exponentially.



You’re missing the point… single items may cost the same (although there are plenty of examples where this is not true). But larger areas/bigger volumes, mean you have to purchase an exponentially greater number of these items (or units).

Take your bottom paint example. Hull surface area increases to the square (assuming all else remains constant). So it’s not going to take you X-times as much paint to cover the hull. It’s going to require X-square.
For my 25-28 footers 1gal of bottom paint usually was good for 2 coats. 36 footer wants 2gals for 2 coats. 100% increase while LOA only increased by about 30-35%.
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Old 12-01-2019, 08:42   #232
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Re: Changing upper bound of boat size considered suitable for couples

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For my 25-28 footers 1gal of bottom paint usually was good for 2 coats. 36 footer wants 2gals for 2 coats. 100% increase while LOA only increased by about 30-35%.
Sigh Ö why is it so hard for people to abstract beyond their own tiny anecdotal evidence
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Old 12-01-2019, 08:47   #233
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Re: Changing upper bound of boat size considered suitable for couples

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With boat loans currently available at 4-4.5 percent, why not use someone elses money to have some fun? Why would you place all your cash in a single depreciating asset when it can be put to work earning money spread out over several different investments that are hopefully, appreciating at a rate greater than 4.5 percent?
yeah, if your boat is a business, it is just like any other business and the financing is part of the deductions for tax purposes. I guess most members here are not business boat owners.

Knowing many, worldwide, that turned their boats into businesses: charters, schools, bnb etc., I also know that very few are making a reasonable profit out of it. I wouldn't argue that having fun as your daily business is great (I do have it in my biotech venture), as long as it generates enough profits for the rest of the important things in life that are not a-hole-in-the-water... (and i'm poring good $$ into such holes since I was 11...)

anyway, it is for another thread - I think the subject here is a boat for cruising couples and the ideal boat number of options/preferences is almost as large as the number of couples...
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Old 12-01-2019, 08:48   #234
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Re: Changing upper bound of boat size considered suitable for couples

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Sigh Ö why is it so hard for people to abstract beyond their own tiny anecdotal evidence
They should really start replacing us with robots as soon as possible
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Old 12-01-2019, 08:51   #235
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Re: Changing upper bound of boat size considered suitable for couples

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Quote: "Think about it, we used to wander around having to handsteer in the fog with a compass, tailing sheets one handed, hanking sails on and off while trying to get a fix on the RDF and making coffee on an alcohol stove. "

TP
There are a lot of things that were more fun back in the day but...


If I were 50 something years older (like my old neighbor and friend Roger who was sailing the Pacific in the 1940s) Iíd respond along these lines.....

Whatís with these plastic boats? Wood is the only way to go. In my time it was really fun to spend 3 hours per day bailing. I made lifelong friends working the handpumps in the darkness of the bilge.

RDF?! Why thatís cheating! Youíre supposed to take a bearing at midnight and noon using the stars or sun and have a leadsman in the chains tossing out a line and calling out the depth. Weíd never use our wireless telegraph machine for help because that was not in the spirit of real boating and really because we didnít believe in batteries.

You canít use alcohol on a ship. Too flammable and expensive. Itís either whale oil for lights and coal in the stove. Coffee? Thatís only for the captain of a ship of the line.

Roger would have said some thing like that.

Haha! :-D
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Old 12-01-2019, 09:06   #236
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Re: Changing upper bound of boat size considered suitable for couples

IMO - not true.
GRP boats made 40-50 years ago had overkill hulls as the experience, materials and engineering were not there yet. Does a heavy thick hull make a boat lasting longer? - not necessarily; Ss we all know, the number one expense and maintenance subject in our lists are the mechanical, rigging, electrical, sails, plumbing, electronics etc...

Old boats that are continuously well maintained/replaced/upgraded throughout all the above are a good buy at any time, but so would be well maintained newer boats.

All these new technical components are generally made much better these days (considering the boat class). The exceptions are the boats made for the charter fleets - these, in most cases are planned to survive for 5-7 years before major refits are required.

And not navigating away from the thread subject; the couple need to find the design, best and newest/well maintained boat that matches BOTH budget and needs/purpose. - of course, making sure it is safe for the purpose.



Quote:
Originally Posted by hpeer View Post
You been lurking our boat? Functions solid, cosmetics? LOL

Here is another question regarding the size evolution.

I think there is pretty wide agreement that todayís 40íer is much more heavily engineered, more roomie, and lighter than an average 40 year old, 1978 model.

Now that 1978 model has been beat around for 40 years and is still ticking, if even modestly maintained.

How will the common 2018 boat look in 2058? Will the hull and rig still be sea worthy? Or will all those stress cycles take their toll?

Our 20 ton 1985 steel cutter has 12 shrouds sharing the load. Todayís 20 ton production boat has 3, 4, or 5. Now thatís a pretty extreamly example and probably not a fair comparison.

Maybe someone who know more than me can pick a a popular mid range production boat of say 15 tons and compare it to a 30-40 year old 15 ton production boat and see how they fare.

My guess, from some survey threads Iíve read, is that todayís boats are simply not built to last as the oldies were. Donít know if that true or an old wives tale.
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Old 12-01-2019, 10:08   #237
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Re: Changing upper bound of boat size considered suitable for couples

My thought was we are not migrating to “bigger” boats if the metric is displacement. It’s just modern techniques buy you more living space Per ton of displacement.

My second thought was: is that a false economy? I don’t know. But i suspect modern production bulls will fail sooner.
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Old 12-01-2019, 10:22   #238
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Re: Changing upper bound of boat size considered suitable for couples

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My thought was we are not migrating to ďbiggerĒ boats if the metric is displacement. Itís just modern techniques buy you more living space Per ton of displacement.

My second thought was: is that a false economy? I donít know. But i suspect modern production bulls will fail sooner.
Agree with the first - most people are looking for comfort, assuming safety is more or less assured with any boat designed for cruising/blue water.

Do not agree with the second - it all depends as with ANY boat ever made on maintenance/upgrades/care... that's all.

Unlike the newer cars that many manufacturers design to start breaking components after 5 years, boat manufacturers still use adequate components and mechanical systems.
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Old 12-01-2019, 10:41   #239
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Re: Changing upper bound of boat size considered suitable for couples

DeValency,

I was thinking more of the hull itself. I runnsteel boats so don’t have experience. But I hear folks talking about hills being cracked because of improper blocking. I see bulls deforming just sitting on the hard. Keel bolt failures.

But I’m digressing from the thread. Point 1 was relevant, the rest is drift. My bad.
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Old 12-01-2019, 10:52   #240
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Re: Changing upper bound of boat size considered suitable for couples

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...My second thought was: is that a false economy? I donít know. But i suspect modern production bulls will fail sooner.
I wonder if this is/was true of most mass production boats at any time. Assuming thereís a range of markets out there, designers and builders will always build to that market.

What were the budget boats of the 70s and 80s, and how many are still with us?
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