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Old 28-06-2016, 17:49   #1
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Centreboard Trismus type vs fixed keel architecture

Following an interesting topic here I have started this to avoid derailing the thread.

This is about the trismus type french boats with centreboards and internal ballast. Is the sideslip in rough conditions a safety factor? Does the low AVS compromise safety. Do they run off and not broach as some say?
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Old 28-06-2016, 17:53   #2
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Re: Centreboard Trismus type vs fixed keel architecture

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Originally Posted by ALAIN97133 View Post
Thanks, I've ordered the book from Amazon. In the meantime, I'd like to remind you that typical older full keel sailboat such as "Joshua" -a full keel steel ketch built like a Sherman tank- was roll over & over during Moitessier 1 & 1/2 solo round the world sailing while the first & second 2012/2013 IMOCA 60' cutters were able to zoom around the world in 78 days (As a reminder, Knox-Johnston did it in 312 days in 1968 with his teak 32' ketch).
But the interesting point is that full keel while less efficient compare to fin keel- as wing to go upwind -when we need them- are very efficient to trip over when going downwind -when we don't need them:
Full or fin keel? - Page 10 - SailNet Community
I've owned both full keel (Camper & Nicholson 31**) and fin keel sailboats (Dufour 27, Chance 33, Ericson 34) but my dream sailboat is a full centerboard sailboat where I can lower the centerboard when I need it & raise it when I don't, even if it means a little more maintenance.
Full keel gurus will remind you of the loss of 4 sailors aboard Cheeki Rafiki a Beneteau 40.7 found upside down without its fin keel... but remember that CR had grounded several time over a 4 year period What happened to Cheeki Rafiki? Key findings from the official Marine Accident Investigation Branch report - Yachting World
**Something I really enjoyed in my Camper & Nicholson full keel 31 footer is the huge water tank">fresh water tank between the led balast & the cabin floor: With a big round access hatch, we were able to clean the tank & keep the fresh water fresh & excellent
See original for some pictures
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Old 28-06-2016, 18:03   #3
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Re: Centreboard Trismus type vs fixed keel architecture

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My recollection of the translated english version of the book was that they were knockdowns, not complete capsizes. And he attributed them to the deck edge "tripping" as much as anything else. But I dont have my copy of the book handy, to double check. A quick skim through "voyage for madmen didn't uncover any capsizes except for the fin keeled Galway Blazer that lay ahull. It mentioned the knockdowns both BM and RKJ had near south africa.

Given that we have plenty of confirmed cases of open 60's and 50's completely capsizing, I would say this is a win to the heavy displacement long keel camp. Dispite owning a light fin keeler with a spade rudder, Id still rather be in a big old heavy steel long keeler in a real blow.

I'd love to try a centreboarder in heavy seas. I think lying a hull would be horrible, but talking to some friends who took their twin fore and aft centreboarder deep into the southern ocean. They say she runs off very well in a blow with the fwd board lifted and just the aft board down. In this configuration she did not want to broach.
.....
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Old 28-06-2016, 18:06   #4
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Re: Centreboard Trismus type vs fixed keel architecture

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I don't mind if I'm wrong about "sancir" or not. My real concern is WHY should we have a fixed underwater architecture while sailing in so different conditions. When you sail upwind you need a "wing" for the lift & lead deep down to contrebalance the wind pressure. But when you do a month passage down the trades or when you look for a safe anchorage**, you don't need that much keel & no (main) centerboard. Planes, birds & fishes have variable architecture, why not sailboats ? I know, I know, centerboards are more work but I'm convinced that the advantages are worth them. I would accept the compromise of keel-centerboard such as the Tartan 37 with its 4' draft

**I remember, in a previous life (1978!) we were cruising with two French sailboats, an 11m Kirk Amel & a twin tandem centerboards Trismus: At one anchorage, on a small island north of Venezuela, both our C&N 31 & the Kirk had to anchor outside a nice "pond" where the full centerboard Trismus was able to anchor with its bow... on the beach ! The kids on the Trismus would jump in the water, walk to the beach & play...
I have skipped a few posts in the conversation that dont directly relate to this thread.

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Old 28-06-2016, 18:22   #5
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Re: Centreboard Trismus type vs fixed keel architecture

Alain, I also have long admired the idea of the french dériveur intégral boats such as the ovni's, Boreals, Trismus etc. With internal ballast and centreboards, maybe even two centreboards. The shallow draft is a great assest, and the ability to run off with the boards up might make the boats safer in a nasty blow. Generally it seems to me that you trade off AVS with the raised ballast, so the boats may not so quickly recover from a capsize. You also trade windward performance, with less power to carry sail, and light air performance with more ballast needed and shorter masts due to less stability.

Just from a historical point of view the IOR played with centreboarders for a while until they were banned. This created a few neat boats such as the hood whale body concept, and the New zealand centreboarders. http://rbsailing.blogspot.com.au/201...art-2.html?m=1

Most impressive was the Bruce King's Terrorist design, with twin asymetric boards that long predated the modern swing keelers

http://rbsailing.blogspot.com.au/201...orist.html?m=1



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Old 29-06-2016, 07:33   #6
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Re: Centreboard Trismus type vs fixed keel architecture

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Following an interesting topic here I have started this to avoid derailing the thread. This is about the trismus type french boats with centreboards and internal ballast. Is the sideslip in rough conditions a safety factor? Does the low AVS compromise safety. Do they run off and not broach as some say?
-Just a reminder on the tandem centerboard layout that started a new sailboat fashion in France/Europe: "Trismus" was the result of a Belgium sailor falling in love in Tahiti with Wendy, an American young lady He told her something like "I'll take you to the Tuamotu if you take me to heaven" ! She did & he did but doing so, they fell asleep on their 180 NM trip between Tahiti & Rangiroa. His 20 tons steel full keel boat ended up high & dry on Rangiroa reefs... so high & so dry that they couldn't get it off the reefs
-They fully emptied his "Sherman tank" & flew back to France with his new lady & some drawings from Morgan Embroden, an American naval architect who had applied a XIX century east coast commercial sailboat tandem centerboards design to his cruising sailboat.
-Patrick Van God & French naval architect Jean-Pierre Brouns, not only copied the centerboards concept, they also copied the cabin layout with the head starboard of the companionway & an open main cabin with an open front double berth. Port of the main centerboard housing, you had the galley & starboard, the chart table . You would use the centerboard housing to hold you while cooking underway
-They traveled everywhere including Antarctica but were sunk by a whale on their way back to civilisation !
-In 1977 Patrick disappeared offshore while racing in the first solo 6m50 transatlantic race, the "Mini Transat", in an aluminium contraption
Footnote: Ellen MacArthur: "C'est la Mini Transat qui m'a donné le goût du large. Je ne l'oublierai jamais..."
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Old 29-06-2016, 08:16   #7
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Re: Centreboard Trismus type vs fixed keel architecture

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Alain, I also have long admired the idea of the french dériveur intégral boats such as the ovni's, Boreals, Trismus etc... Just from a historical point of view the IOR played with centreboarders for a while until they were banned. This created a few neat boats such as the hood whale body concept, and the New zealand centreboarders... Most impressive was the Bruce King's Terrorist design, with twin asymetric boards that long predated the modern swing keelers
-Bruce King's design is very efficient but goes against layout design for cruising confort.
-Ted Hood designed, in the late '70, a centerboard sailboat that was built in the US (Little Harbour 38 sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=2410 ) & France (Wauquiez 38 sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=2389 ). Same hull, different inside layout. Several Wauquiez 38 are on the second hand market for price ranging from $55 to $85K.
"1893: A first attempt at the ‘twin-keel’ Dilemma (1891) was one of the American designer Nathanael Greene Herreshoff’s most brilliant designs, and this is from a man who would model no less than six successful America’s Cup defenders. Dilemma sailed around the world and inspired some audacious copies including the enormous 1893 America’s Cup defender candidates, the 25.90 meter Jubilee and Pilgrim."
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Old 29-06-2016, 09:04   #8
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Re: Centreboard Trismus type vs fixed keel architecture

Patrick Van God & French naval architect Jean-Pierre Brouns designed the Trismus and the Trisbal (aluminm) lines. These names and P. Marique (consltant) are shown on drawings for my Trisbal 36, Rover registered in Iqalit, Canada.

I have posted plans and specifications at https://krazysailing.wordpress.com/saturos-2/

I sailed Rover from Florida to Nova Scotia and can add, one needs the centrebordt or she'll not point. As I can attest as one day I tried to tack out of downtown Boston and ended further into the harbor!
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Old 29-06-2016, 09:20   #9
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Re: Centreboard Trismus type vs fixed keel architecture

I have admired several "Trismus type" French boats. The interior layout is different from common American designed production boats.

I was curious about the name "Trismus."

I wanted to know their meaning or derivation or origin.

It turns out that "Trismus" is a medical term for the malady know as "lock jaw."

And that that word is derived from Greek "Trismus" meaning "a scream" or "grinding."

An odd name for a boat design.
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Old 29-06-2016, 09:55   #10
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Red face Re: Centreboard Trismus type vs fixed keel architecture

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I have admired several "Trismus type" French boats. The interior layout is different from common American designed production boats. I was curious about the name "Trismus." I wanted to know their meaning or derivation or origin. It turns out that "Trismus" is a medical term for the malady know as "lock jaw." And that that word is derived from Greek "Trismus" meaning "a scream" or "grinding." An odd name for a boat design.
The explanation is simple: Patrick Van God was a Belgium dentist ! I guess it was a private joke for him...
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Old 29-06-2016, 10:00   #11
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Re: Centreboard Trismus type vs fixed keel architecture

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Patrick Van God & French naval architect Jean-Pierre Brouns designed the Trismus and the Trisbal (aluminm) lines. These names and P. Marique (consultant) are shown on drawings for my Trisbal 36, Rover registered in Iqalit, Canada... I sailed Rover from Florida to Nova Scotia and can add, one needs the centreboard or she'll not point. As I can attest as one day I tried to tack out of downtown Boston and ended further into the harbor!
"Iqalit, Canada" ! Do you mean Iqalit 64° North ? Will you try the North West passage ? Poupon did it with wife & young children in his aluminium CENTERBOARD sailboat "Fleur Australe" Bateau - Fleur Australe - Expédition maritime de Géraldine Danon et Philippe Poupon
Concerning the design of the first 37' Trismus, Patrick Van God wrote that he came back to France with the drawing sections of Morgan Embroden's sailboat. Jean-Pierre Brouns must have helped him to make sure that this prototype was OK before being fully involved in the production numerous models.
One thing I'm not crazy about is the sailplan (Too small): Centerboarders would love 7/8 rigs. They allow for a taler mast & more sail, but once you take the first deep reef, your back to a "masthead" configuration. I don't mind running backstays provided you don't have to use them under force 5 & when you use them, their deck attachement points should be forward enough as to be able to keep both "on" when you tack Cheers !
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Old 29-06-2016, 11:21   #12
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Re: Centreboard Trismus type vs fixed keel architecture

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The explanation is simple: Patrick Van God was a Belgium dentist ! I guess it was a private joke for him...

That explains it!
LOL!

I suppose that is a better name than "Ahhh."
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Old 29-06-2016, 13:43   #13
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Re: Centreboard Trismus type vs fixed keel architecture

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Originally Posted by Steady Hand View Post
I have admired several "Trismus type" French boats. The interior layout is different from common American designed production boats.

I was curious about the name "Trismus."

I wanted to know their meaning or derivation or origin.

It turns out that "Trismus" is a medical term for the malady know as "lock jaw."

And that that word is derived from Greek "Trismus" meaning "a scream" or "grinding."

An odd name for a boat design.

If you really think it means something try also figuring out the etymology of the other boats from the same "chantier".
Trisbal
Trisfer
Triswood
Trisinox
Trisalu
Trisplus.

LOL

LOL
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Old 29-06-2016, 14:47   #14
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Re: Centreboard Trismus type vs fixed keel architecture

Our boat is a Trisalu 37. It's an aluminum adaptation of the Trismus, but a different hull shape (beam carried further aft) and twin stern daggerboards instead of the fore and aft inline boards.

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Unfortunately, we have yet to sail her as we're completely refitting the boat...Down to bare metal inside and out. But our sistership has been sailing Greenland and is doing the Northwest Passage right now, and they indicate she sails extremely well in heavy weather. If you'd like to follow them, their site is: Le navire | Maewan Adventure Base

Our biggest issue with the boat now is trying to recover the daggerboard trunks. When we bought the boat, the slots were fiberglassed closed because the previous owner sheared off the plywood daggerboards in a grounding, and he didn't want to rebuild them. Unfortunately, he also wedged teak into the slots before glassing the slots closed. Of course water leaked in and the wet wood and aluminum pitted out both trunks. I've yet to figure a good way to rebuild them without cutting the entire stern apart. As you can see in the drawing, rebuilding the trunks would require cutting apart the cockpit, aft bulkhead, waterproof bulkhead, and rudder well in the stern (there is no access to the top or sides of the trunks inside).

We have thought of welding new boxes, inserting them into the trunk,and welding the perimeter around the hull, but without access to the top, we have no way to seal the upper area where the sheave is....

boats!



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Old 29-06-2016, 16:49   #15
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Re: Centreboard Trismus type vs fixed keel architecture

after reading all that 'what was the question' oh yeah a lot of ballast systems were purpose built for various geographic areas / large flat bottoms with lee boards for shoal area, heavy wind up keels to handle ocean passages then wind the board up for shoals(lady nelson) the ship designs are either borrowed from yachts or vis versa / ballast is to enable the boat to self right and to stay upright or in a steerable position / whatever system or design you use to enable you to achieve whatever you set out to do is good / the first known design for a cat was the poms with a 2 hulled boat in 1700's / whether they had Polynesian slaves working in the shipyards is a mystery
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