Center Cockpit vs Aft Cockpit

[Benny]

Kanani - I only am aware of 2 instances of chainplate failure on the thousands of Irwins produced with your friend's being the second one. It is true that you cannot visually inspect them but they can be x-rayed in place and some Irwin owners have done so after the only other instance - which is posted on that Irwin Yachts website - has occured.

There are problems of all sorts which occur in boats of all makes including Passports and my advice to check any boat thoroughly before purchase is sound - however I will not broadbrush any make of boat as you have done due to a rare incident. If we did that, no used boat of any age would be purchased and prospective buyers and sellers would be victims of old style witch hunts.

Even with the expense of x-raying, a used Irwin would still represent a good value for a purchase. If I were purchasing a Passport 45, I would still do the same rigorous inspection as an Irwin or any boat. Relying on a verbal reputation either good or bad makes assumptions and to assume generally makes an ass out of u and me.
So I do not assume but get as many real facts as possible - starting with a good inspection and then survey and then current owners opinions etc. I'm certain you would do the same when purchasing any boat.

[Benny]

http://irwinyachts.com/Drawings-Manu...hainplates.pdf

Not to belabour this point but I want all to be aware that almost any boat can have a chainplate failure problem over the age of 10 years as the above article by a surveyor and boatbuilder confirms - so if you have a through deck chainplate system of any sort, it may be worthwhile to have them x-rayed along with your standing rigging and turnbuckles. We ALL know that any link in the system that fails could cause a dis-masting.

For $500.00 or less I feel it's worth it to find out if (a) there is a problem and (b) if not then peace of mind that there will not be a failure - usually at the worst time in a blow.

BTW Kanani - are you aware that there were many supposed Passport 45's made in Taiwan that were not real Passports? I hope you have the real deal.

[Nightwatch]

The Irwin 37 is an old boat that they built before the industry new how to make fiberglass cheep. They are heavy and pretty bullet proof. The 38’s are a different breed.

[irwinsailor]

This is not the same model as is being discussed but still may help to understand the build quality of some Irwins.

Sailing Magazine

[easterly]

My boat is a CC. I love the walk through to the aft cabin with the queen berth, 2 heads, forward port/aft starboard and 6'6"+ of standing headroom in the salon. I'm 6'4" and had a hard time finding a 36' boat with good head room. The engine room has easy access. The down side is a fin keel that draws 5'3". Net 14

[Kanani]

Originally Posted by Benny

http://irwinyachts.com/Drawings-Manu...hainplates.pdf

Not to belabour this point but I want all to be aware that almost any boat can have a chainplate failure problem over the age of 10 years as the above article by a surveyor and boatbuilder confirms - so if you have a through deck chainplate system of any sort, it may be worthwhile to have them x-rayed along with your standing rigging and turnbuckles. We ALL know that any link in the system that fails could cause a dis-masting.

For $500.00 or less I feel it's worth it to find out if (a) there is a problem and (b) if not then peace of mind that there will not be a failure - usually at the worst time in a blow.

BTW Kanani - are you aware that there were many supposed Passport 45's made in Taiwan that were not real Passports? I hope you have the real deal.

Sorry if I offended you or anyone else with my post. That certainly was not my intent as it was not my intent to bash Irwins or any other vessel. I simply think that the system of glassing in chainplates is not a good system.

As you well pointed out, every boat built has certain questionable design issues. This is just one that I have had personal experience with and felt it was worth the discussion.

Having said that, my Passport is one of the Taiwan built boats. I believe that there were around 130 of them built before operations were moved to the US (Virginia, I believe).

The early Passports were real Passports (same builder, different country) and the reputation of these vessels is what made their boats so popular. My understanding is that the hull was built from the mold of the Peterson 44 with 1' added to the middle of the mold. The deck was modified for a higher coach house and full standing-room walk-through to the aft cabin.

I found bad chainplates on Kanani also in 1990 (cracked where they pass through the deck). I replaced them all. I wish that I would have understood the chemical process of S/S at that time. I would have installed the chainplates on the outside of the hull. In fact, I would never own another boat with chainplates that pass through the hull.

[Benny]

Kanani - I agree completely and acknowledge your interest in reporting the deficiencies of the chainplate systems only. I will investigate getting mine x-rayed and if done will report the results here and on the Irwin site.

I have always liked the passport yachts and am glad you clarified their pedigree.

[jcmatthews3]

Any thoughts on S2 center cockpit model that is 36'. considering???

[jcmatthews3]

You guys seem to know your cc boats. Does anyone happen to know the GRT of a Morgan OI 51' ketch? I cant find it????

[Dockhead]

Center Cockpit:

Great aft cabin

higher cockpit

better view forward

better view when docking

worse view of sails

smaller cockpit

smaller saloon

wetter

The bigger the boat, the better a center cockpit works. For my taste, only way to go, at least 45' and up. But it's a matter of taste. For me, view forward is absolutely key to situation awareness and general well being under way, and trumps a ton of other considerations. But then again, I strongly prefer cars with good view forward (like Porsche 911's) and always drive with the seats adjusted all the way up, so your taste may be different.


Oh, I almost forgot: with a center cockpit boat, you get an after deck! A place to wander around on, set up chairs, make a barbecue, string a hammock, have pushpit seats. It's one of the really special places on a sailboat, and you can't have it on an aft cockpit boat. Expressed another way: who ever spends any time on the foredeck, other than to work? An aft cockpit boat has nothing but the cockpit and th foredeck. A center cockpit boat has everything pushed forward, so that you have less foredeck and much more useful space on deck (after deck plus cockpit, instead of just cockpit). If you want to be outdoors instead of down below, the center cockpit is the only way to go.

[davidschiff]

i crewed on a downwind race from sfo to Santa cruz in a center cockpit. i didnt like the difficulty of entrace and exit from the side decks and little to hang onto/ clip in to. may have been just that 52 Tayana cutter. the seat backs were too low, and not comfortable to lean back on, I didnt care for the fact that i was higher above the water with more motion. Down below, it was indeed like a hotel... lovely
We have a Shannon 43 aft cockpit ketch. its a keel center board 4.9/8.9 the mizzen shrouds make some difficulty at the dock, but under way in, in weather, a wonderful/secure place to be. I prefer being lower on the water, the cockpit was bone dry in 35kts and breaking seas and when heaving to as we did for two days. I love the room of a center, but the looks and security of a deep well designed[ and drained] aft cockpit with proper seat back angles is my choice... my .02 we lived on it for 5 years.
all the best in you choice
david

[Pelagic]

I agree.....the ease of entry/exit from any cockpit in a seaway is for me one of the key components in boat design.

One of the main attractions that led me to StarGazer was the walk in cockpit.... I love it!

[bstreep]

Originally Posted by davidschiff

i crewed on a downwind race from sfo to Santa cruz in a center cockpit. i didnt like the difficulty of entrace and exit from the side decks and little to hang onto/ clip in to. may have been just that 52 Tayana cutter. the seat backs were too low, and not comfortable to lean back on, I didnt care for the fact that i was higher above the water with more motion. Down below, it was indeed like a hotel... lovely
We have a Shannon 43 aft cockpit ketch. its a keel center board 4.9/8.9 the mizzen shrouds make some difficulty at the dock, but under way in, in weather, a wonderful/secure place to be. I prefer being lower on the water, the cockpit was bone dry in 35kts and breaking seas and when heaving to as we did for two days. I love the room of a center, but the looks and security of a deep well designed[ and drained] aft cockpit with proper seat back angles is my choice... my .02 we lived on it for 5 years.
all the best in you choice
david

From a CC owner: You are pretty much right on.

[gs41escapade]

I love my CC Gulfstar 41. As a liveaboard, I specifically looked for CC as the aft cabin does make long term living aboard much more workable. But I would question the value of a CC design under 37' or so. Smaller than that I think the design tradeoffs would lead almost inevitably to an unworkable and unattractive result.

[SimonFirth]

I've only ever seen one boat less than 36' with an aft cabin worth doing and that is the Jarkan 10.5. It also manages not to look like a floating caravan.

There were 138 built so there is a secondhand market there.