Center Cockpit vs Aft Cockpit

[dcstrng]

<The centre cockpit allows … more room down below with an aft cabin, easy engine access, higher freeboard…>

Some of that I agree with, some wasn’t my experience, but I didn’t mean to step on another skipper’s toes vis the Irwin 37… please forgive.

My Irwin 42 CC had anything but easy access to the engine, more like standing on my head with my heels strapped to the main halyard and having to work on the Perkins with tweezers through the neck of a bottle… I used to envy a nearby OI forty-something’s snug engine room or those aft cockpit boats where they simply lifted up the companionway steps and sat down beside the iron-thingie like civilized folks… higher freeboard, or at least the effect of same, was there to be sure, as was the larger cockpit, but in my opinion a good recreational sailing cockpit is usually limited in width by how far from one’s back (from the combing) to the opposite seat to brace on – anything more than that can vary from inconvenient to unsafe… when I thought I might actually cruise on mine I had sketched up a rear cockpit conversion in hopes of getting some of the wasted cabin space back – sorta ala the Mason 43 (?) and/or like 40-something boat that Hankinson (as I recall...) had drawn for the Glen-L folks…

But to each their own – center cockpits clearly are almost universally popular at some level and provide the additional service of providing some serious privacy between the fore and aft cabin areas… what I didn’t like was giving up the under-seat sail storage (hanked on sails) I envied in similar sized aft-cockpit boats… although mine had a rather sizeable lazerett, so storage wasn’t quite as compromised as some…

[High Cotton]

The center-cockpit is a much drier ride due to high free-board, very large cockpit due to the beam toward the center of the boat, much better vision 360* sitting up higher than aft cockpit with complete view of the bow.
Not to mention a great aft-cabin, I also have two staterooms complete with full enclosed heads. Companionway is 6'3", easy to maneuver, mucho storage and accessible engine room from 3 sides.
When we were boat shopping we preferred the center cockpit and we're very happy with that decision.... feeling like we're sitting on top of the world as opposed to sitting low, in the back, at water level in an aft cockpit with visibility that is not as good as the center...... not to mention the complete privacy for two couples at each end of the boat in private staterooms.
This leaves a great aft-deck where we keep two deck chairs, a large cooler between, and all safety eqpt hanging off the aft-rail, out of the way, along with the davits and RIB, with the outboard on the rail.
VERY convenient set-up, I'll always have a center-cockpit.... JMHO.

[camaraderie]

I own a 52ft.CC Ketch and have owned aft cockpit boats in the past. I think CC boats under 40 ft. or so tend to be roomy, high freeboard condo type affairs that sacrifice some style, on deck storage and seaworthiness and sea kindly motion for on board liveability. As such...they are a good choice for some and not for others.
Once you get into larger CC boats these disadvantages disappear and I think this is why so many full time cruisers with larger boats choose CC over aft. I certainly would never go back. The ketch rig in a larger boat sacrifices some pointing ability in favor of a lower mainmast height and smaller individual sails which is good for bridges, short handed & older crews (muscle), and gives you more options when the weather gets snotty.
The only real disadvantage of a larger CC boat is that the helmsman cannot help in the docking process as the stern lines are far away from the wheel. Thus you must PLAN your docking and have all lines/fenders set to go.

[dkall]

However, the helmsman -woman is much closer to the action all the way around if need be. Easier to hear and easier to lend a quick hand. Docking we're going dog slow anyway so leaving the helm for a sec or two is generally ok and since we're handling lines and the gear is usually off here it doesn't really matter. Just my 2 cents.

Oh, BTW I own a center cockpit boat.

Fair Winds.

[Kanani]

We loved our Passport 45, center cockpit ketch. IMHO, it is the ultimate cruising boat.

I will admit that going to windward in 30+ kts of wind (who does that) can be wet if you don't have a cockpit enclosure.....but why wouldn't you .

Having said all that, I may think twice on a 30' boat. I'm just not sure that there is enough room for a adaquate aft cabin (unless you are 5'0" tall). It's kinda like having your choice between a 300 sq ft 1B/R apt or a 300 sq ft 2B/R apt. At some point, it makes no sence.

[SkiprJohn]

Having sailed on CCs, Cal 2-46 and a Celestial 46 I much prefer an aft cockpit boat. I like the visibility afforded from an aft cockpit where I can see everything that's happening on deck while looking forward. I also like the feeling of being a bit closer to the water and a bit less exposed to splash from the bow.
If you could take the opportunity to sail on a couple of different boats with each option that might be the best way to compare them.
Kind Regards,
JohnL

[Nightwatch]

Much has to do with your intended use. IMHO, if you are looking in the low 30’s, the aft cockpit has more usable living space. In the high 30’s you can find some boats that are laid out with adequate living space. If you are weekending with short cruises, you can live in a boat that after 2 weeks feels like you have been camping. As you look at boats you will find those that are meant for cruising and those that are made to sleep to many people. If you are going to race, there are many more thing to consider. Make a list of thing you have to have, some you would like to have and those thing that would be nice if they were there.

[Joli]

Looking for a winch buddy?

I see Swagman is on the list. Sounds like a CF class could be forming?

Originally Posted by MarkJ

Yes. Bimini's.


Hmmmmm.


I might shove it over the side but Nicolle has very fair skin. It only covers the cockpit, not the helm, but is too low.

If we do the Anitigua week together you can cut a hole in it for your head

[Lightfin]

Benny,

The Irwins sound pretty good to me.

How does yours compare with the 38' version??


1987 Irwin Center Cockpit Boat For Sale

Thanks.

Bob

[Kanani]

Originally Posted by Lightfin

Benny,

The Irwins sound pretty good to me.

How does yours compare with the 38' version??


1987 Irwin Center Cockpit Boat For Sale

Thanks.

Bob

Be very careful with that boat. I had a friend that had an Irwin 38. The chainplates were glassed into the hull. He broke 2 chainplates on one side and lost his mast. When we cut the chainplates out of the hull, all of them came out in pieces. What a scary set-up. Makes me wonder what else they did on that boat.

We re-glassed and reinforsed the inside of the hull and through bolted the new chainplates on the outside of the hull. It wasn't as pretty but they will last for many years.

[dhstrider]

S2 made several cc's before they introduced their last new sailboat design in 1986 - the S2 35C. It is a G&S design and is one of the better proportioned CC's out there. It is rooming, the engine is easy to get to, the systems well thought out and it was well built. We brought ours down the ICW without a dodger and while people would actually walk by and say "that boat doesn't have a dodger!" like they had never seen one without one before, we found the boat dryer than most in all conditions. The boats are early "epoxy" boats with cored hull and decks. The ones I know about have held up very well. Ours is hull three and "the hull surveyed like one year old boat" per the surveyor. The negatives are the higher cockpit, more noticeable roll and learning the head "lean" to avoid bumping it getting into the galley. It is a rooming and well sailing 35 foot boat. Worth considering when looking at the differences between CC's and aft cockpit boats as I believe S2 successfully addressed many of the traditional concerns of CC boats. And, yes, a dodger is in the works!

[jackdale]

I have sailed to CC boats: Moody 34 and Hylas 46. That is quite a range. The engine access is a design issue. The Moody 34 was great except they put the dip stick on the inoard side of the engine. The galleys in both boats were good. You could brace yourself in well. The Hylas had the sink in the center-line - very nice.

The great advantage of a CC is the aft cabin with standing head room all around.

One disadvantage is that the emergency tiller has to reach a rubber stock in the aft cabin. In some it has an extension. On the Moody you stood on the settee and steered with your head stuck out of the hatch.

Look at several boats; sail them if you can. Make many comparisons. Buy it only if you love it.

Jack

[Benny]

Lightfin - to answer your question - the 38 offers some features that the 37 doesn't like more beam and a centre line pedestal queen berth in the aft cabin. It also has an entry into the aft head from the galley which is very handy. It only comes in sloop rig though and I prefer a ketch but to each his own. They are the upgrade to the 37 when he stopped production on them. I know of several out there and if you go to the Irwin site Irwin Yachts and enter the site, you can not only get specs but links to the owners group and ask 38 owners what they think of their boats. I would have bought one of them instead of my 37 but there were none available at the time and I got such a great deal on mine - I couldn't pass on it. I have totally upgraded my boat and she has recently appraised for quite a bit more than I have in it in hard dollars not counting my sweat equity.

As to the comment about the chainplates, I will enlighten the uninformed about them and Irwins in general as there are some out there who think these yachts weren't built well.

Firstly I know of at least 2 top notch marine and ship surveyors that own Irwin 38's.

The chain plates are a web of stainless straps glassed into the hull and are considered to be a strong assembly. The problem occurs from lack of maintenance when the sealant around the tang which exits the cap rail is not kept up to snuff and water penetrates over a long period of time thereby allowing the surrounding glass to weaken and like any boat if not maintained properly, problems will occur.

About Irwins in general, there were more Irwins produced than any other production boats by far and were designed and sold to supply a well found cruising boat that was affordable and was well outfitted. This allowed many sailors and non sailors to upgrade to a larger boat or get into sailing on a comfortable cruising boat that was not possible with most of the makes out there due to higher pricing. Some of these were not maintained well by their owners and the many systems if not maintained would eventually fail. This was due to owner inattention and ignorance on the whole and not to quality of build. therefore it is a sheer numbers game - hundreds of boats built means a fair number will not be maintained and will get a reputation which is undeserved. My boat is 32 years old and has been abused by the PO however, the hull and chainplates are sound and the original standing rigging is in good shape. It has original steering, refrigeration, and heads and all are working fine after I brought them up to snuff.

Any boat you look at may be a problem boat so whether it is an Irwin or an Oyster, you have to check all the areas for problems.

I can tell you for the money and the quality of the boat, I am happy with my decision to purchase this boat. BTW the first owners of my boat were C and C Yachts who bought it to design their Landfill 38 from it. Can't be that bad - can it?

[Benny]

OOOPS that LandFALL 38 - apology to any owners out there.

[Kanani]

Originally Posted by Benny

Lightfin - to answer your question - the 38 offers some features that the 37 doesn't like more beam and a centre line pedestal queen berth in the aft cabin. It also has an entry into the aft head from the galley which is very handy. It only comes in sloop rig though and I prefer a ketch but to each his own. They are the upgrade to the 37 when he stopped production on them. I know of several out there and if you go to the Irwin site Irwin Yachts and enter the site, you can not only get specs but links to the owners group and ask 38 owners what they think of their boats. I would have bought one of them instead of my 37 but there were none available at the time and I got such a great deal on mine - I couldn't pass on it. I have totally upgraded my boat and she has recently appraised for quite a bit more than I have in it in hard dollars not counting my sweat equity.

As to the comment about the chainplates, I will enlighten the uninformed about them and Irwins in general as there are some out there who think these yachts weren't built well.

Firstly I know of at least 2 top notch marine and ship surveyors that own Irwin 38's.

The chain plates are a web of stainless straps glassed into the hull and are considered to be a strong assembly. The problem occurs from lack of maintenance when the sealant around the tang which exits the cap rail is not kept up to snuff and water penetrates over a long period of time thereby allowing the surrounding glass to weaken and like any boat if not maintained properly, problems will occur.

About Irwins in general, there were more Irwins produced than any other production boats by far and were designed and sold to supply a well found cruising boat that was affordable and was well outfitted. This allowed many sailors and non sailors to upgrade to a larger boat or get into sailing on a comfortable cruising boat that was not possible with most of the makes out there due to higher pricing. Some of these were not maintained well by their owners and the many systems if not maintained would eventually fail. This was due to owner inattention and ignorance on the whole and not to quality of build. therefore it is a sheer numbers game - hundreds of boats built means a fair number will not be maintained and will get a reputation which is undeserved. My boat is 32 years old and has been abused by the PO however, the hull and chainplates are sound and the original standing rigging is in good shape. It has original steering, refrigeration, and heads and all are working fine after I brought them up to snuff.

Any boat you look at may be a problem boat so whether it is an Irwin or an Oyster, you have to check all the areas for problems.

I can tell you for the money and the quality of the boat, I am happy with my decision to purchase this boat. BTW the first owners of my boat were C and C Yachts who bought it to design their Landfill 38 from it. Can't be that bad - can it?

The problem with S/S chainplates that are glassed into the hull is that it is impossible to inspect them. You state, "The chainplates are sound". Are you determining that by the mere fact that they have not broken? That does not necessarily mean that they are "sound". The only way that you can determine that chainplates are really sound is to take them off and have them x-rayed for cracks and sub-surface corrosion. This procedure is impossible on these vessels with encapsulated chainplates.

Stainless steel, by it's very nature, must have access to oxygen to activate the chemical process that makes S/S "Stainless". In the absence of oxygen, stainless steel is actually more subject to corrosion and electrolysis then mild steel.

By encapsulating S/S in resin, it has no access to oxygen and is subject to deterioration faster than if it were out in the open.

Most common chainplate failure occurs just below the deck level on vessels that have chainplates that pass though the deck. That is because sealers must be used to keep water from going down below. It is the use of these sealers that rob the chainplates of oxygen and contribute to premature failure.

When we removed the chainplates on my friends Irwin, they fell apart like broken glass. Although they seemed OK on the surface, the S/S was total rust just below the surface.