Center cockpit design love and hate

[Jammer]

There are a number of notable center cockpit boats. Many, though not all, are ketch rigged.


What are the practical benefits and drawbacks of these designs, compared to the more conventional aft cockpit layout? Do center cockpits still make sense on sloop and cutter rigged boats where the placement of the mizzen does not drive the design choice? Are there particular sizes of boats where a center cockpit makes more sense?

[Cheechako]

I would say at least 40 ft or more starts to make sense.

+Aft cabins are roomy.
- Aft cabins are stuffy and more difficult to get airflow into as opposed to a V berth.
+ A V berth you get good airflow and can hear what's going on with the anchor chain etc.
+ Center cockpits usually allow for a large engine room.
+ Center cockpits have nice visibility.
- Center cockpit designs usually have more windage,
- Center cockpits may have smaller/shorter mainsails losing the large bottom area of the sail. (maybe thus the ketch rig?)

[skipmac]

All what Cheechako said but one more thing I really like about center cockpits. With an aft cabin you have a bed that's always just a bed. It's all too easy for the forepeak to turn into a sail locker plus at sea it can be uninhabitable. Aft cabin you don't have to convert a settee so when you're tired you just get in bed. Though some points of sail the aft cabin isn't the least motion it will be much less motion underway than a forward cabin.

I have owned or lived on three aft cabin boats, two sloops and one cutter and the rig worked quite well. Only complaint with the current boat is the cockpit is higher so the boom is a bit low limiting the height of the bimini.

[MicHughV]

I built a center cockpit Roberts 38 with ketch rig. At the time, I was very enamored with the aft cabin, but the Roberts 38 was a very narrow boat...11'3" beam and the aft quarters were were narrow. Nonetheless, not knowing better, that's how I built it. In my opinion, 38' is a tad small for a center cockpit. The center cockpit location, being located in front of the mizzen also is a " wet" location. Spray coming over the boat when hard on the wind, would come back as far as the middle of the boat, which is where the cockpit was. The walk-thru' next to the cockpit was quite narrow, a tight squeeze one might say.
In later years I also owned a C&C Landfall 42....another center cockpit design, but cutter rigged. This boat had a companionway to the front and rear, though I rarely used the rear companionway. There is a big difference between 38' and 42'.....but even so, the Landfall was tight in the walk-thru' area, though much more manageable than the Roberts 38.
Finally, I had a Beneteau 432. This was an aft cockpit design. Not only aft cockpit, but in true Beneteau fashion the back of the cockpit was "open".
All things considered, the Beneteau cockpit was by far and away, the best set up. The open cockpit just made life easier. True, in a big following sea, there is always the possibility of a wave climbing aboard, but being open, could also just flow out just as quick.
Lastly, a center cockpit layout usually means no cockpit lockers, which in my opinion sucks.
The Beneteau has a generator under one cockpit seat, plus ample space for a ton of stuff. The other side had a cabin underneath the cockpit seat, but even so, there was a shallow cockpit locker there. In the stern of the boat was additional under the cockpit seat lockers.
Hands down, I think the aft cockpit is the better layout for any kind of sailboat under 48' or so.
The Beneteau is also a typical French design with a very wide stern, much wider than either the Roberts or Landfall. This allows a lot of room. Seeing as you spend most of your time in the cockpit, this is a big deal. My vote, hands down, the Beneteau cockpit design.

[Pelagic]

[QUOTE=MicHughV;2811704
Hands down, I think the aft cockpit is the better layout for any kind of sailboat [/QUOTE]

I agree.
Drier, lower with less wind exposure
Easier to shadel
allows helmsman to handle stern lines

I love our aft cockpit as you walk into it rather than scramble over winches and sheets

[MicHughV]

If you are really stuck on having a center cockpit....you can do what I did.

I sewed up some " windscoops" from an old sail cover material.
Around the forward portholes in the back cabin, I drilled and inserted some posts, they have a name, but I don't know what it is. Each forward porthole on both sides of the aft cabin had 4 studs, one on each corner. The " windscoop" I had sewn together was made to fit around these portholes and had these little clips that would fasten onto these studs. The wider flange of the windscoop reached out to the lifelines opposite the porthole. This fabric flange I would affix to the upper lifeline with a small diameter rope that was sewn into the " windscoop" The lower portion of the fabric flange was tied around the bottom of a stanchion. The flange at the lifeline was about the height of the stanchions, around 30" and tapered down to around 8" at the porthole.

You can buy these " windscoops" that fit over your forward hatch. The porthole " windscoops" I fabricated were essentially the same thing, but laying horizontally, instead of vertically. If I knew how to attach a sketch I would, but hope my description will suffice.

At anchor, they worked like a charm, funneling a good breeze into the aft cabin. They were easy to clip on and take off.
If it started to rain, I just closed the porthole from inside the boat, leaving the windscoops out there. When the rain passed, I just opened the portholes again and captured a nice cool breeze.

On a long voyage, I just left these in place, so anyone using the back cabin for a nap, had a nice breeze. I took them down when appropriate.

[MicHughV]

I should mention that the studs and clips are the same as you sometimes see that hold the forward lower portion of you dodger to the deck. I drilled a hole in the side of the cabin around the porthole and then tapped it to accommodate the screw thread of the stud. A nice dollop of 3M 5200 before you insert the stud will keep it rust free for life.

[Tillsbury]

Centre cockpits make for good aft cabins, for sure. I agree that the boat needs to be 40'+ to have them make sense and keep the cockpit as low as possible in the boat. However, I wouldn't have another as the aft cabin can get awful slapping from even a very small sea state which used to drive me mad. On passage, I'm sleeping in a pilot berth anyway, so it doesn't matter to me which cabin is the "main" one, nor that the forecabin is unusable when beating into a big sea. Big doubles are lovely to sleep in, but on passage I want to be much closer to the action and in a narrow single with leecloths.

Any cabin you like can be a junk/sail locker, or preferably there should be a separate sail locker in between the anchor well and the forward cabin with a watertight bulkhead, which is how my current boat is. That moves the forward cabin back and avoids it getting full of wet spinnaker.

The aft cockpit allows for stern-to mooring (far easier and more pleasant to get on and off and access the dinghy or water), a much larger cockpit so everyone doesn't feel they're crammed in waiting for the next gale, open aft so no worries about the cockpit drains being overwhelmed, lower floor level (giving higher headroom under bimini and less windage). And twin wheels, making the entire cockpit more open and avoiding the feeling that one person is driving and everyone else is just waiting to get to the next port.

[Kenomac]

Two significant reason why a center cockpit makes sense.

1. Very sea kindly motion when one sits in the center of the teeter totter (watch video to the end).

2. Stern owners cabin with head and shower.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_f4Wf0qDdbs

[JPA Cate]

Hi, everyone, I am in the aft cockpit crowd, so you're about to be subjected to my biases.

Thanks to Cheechako for providing the first short list, for me to work from.

Aft cabins are roomy. Yes, they are, but they represent a space where you will spend about 1/3 your time, and the space comes at the cost of a less spacious saloon, and in some cases, the space for a second companionway. Also, you are more or less forced into a non U-shaped galley, which I believe to be the safest in a seaway, although that can be improved with a "butt belt". I thought I wanted the island bed, for ease of making it, etc., but now I am glad we got the forepeak berth, and two aft, for guests: I'm convinced it is a better use of the space available. We are able to sleep during passages some of the time forward, sometimes on the settee.

Aft cabins are stuffy and more difficult to get airflow into as opposed to a V berth. Can address by adding fans.

A V berth you get good airflow and can hear what's going on with the anchor chain etc. Some people don't like the sound of the chain on coral, but one does get used to it.

Center cockpits usually allow for a large engine room. They may, but an aft cockpit does not eliminate the possibility of an accessible engine; not all are stuffed under the cockpit. For example, ours is under the counter of the U in the galley, and i have seen them forward of the galley, amidships.

Center cockpits have nice visibility. I'm not sure they're nicer than the aft cockpit, but they are closer to the front of the boat, and wetter. The latter causes people to build huge enclosures which in turn impair pointing ability.

Someone mentioned the time to convert a settee to the midships berth. For us, this is 3 lines to tie to three pad eyes affixed to the underneath of 3 deck beams, one or two snap hooks, depending on conditions, and grabbing a blanket or a sleeping bag. It takes less than a minute, using rolling hitches. For me, not a problem. I do agree that i do not like the forepeak when it's bouncy. The dorades are in the saloon, so there is good air circulation, even with the boat closed up. In hot weather, I can aim two fans onto the settee. There have been times when it was the only place on the boat where I could sleep.

For me, it is easier to drive the boat without half of it aft of me. I'd rather see the whole boat in front of me, somehow, it's easier to visualize how it spins around the keel, and therefore, where all of it will be going, as she is steered. This may be idiocyncratic to me.

Furthermore, the steering from center cockpits is less direct. Therefore, it offers less "feel" when steering, but, perhaps more important, it is more difficult to fit wind steering that is low friction, as well as the huge enclosures people make interfering with wind flow to the vane. If someone wanted to use a wind vane for silent, no power drain steering, the aft cockpit will work better. It is especially important for smaller boats.



Ann

[Fiveslide]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

I love our aft cockpit as you walk into it rather than scramble over winches and sheetsAttachment 184581

Pelagic, mate, that is NOT a typical aft cockpit that most of us are used to... Get out of this thread with your awesome aft cockpit! [emoji3]

I like some center cockpit boats. If a particular design comes in either center or aft cockpit, I tend to favor the aft cockpit version. The Tayana 52 is a good example of a boat that comes both ways, the aft cockpit version is my favorite.

[hpeer]

We looked at a lot of boats and for my Bride having a separate aftncabin with a bed accessibelnonnbith side became a big deal. Not all cc’s are equal. We have a heavy, 20 ton, steel cutter, cc. Because she is heavy she sits IN the water. Consequently our cockpit is much lower than those on many fg boats. Our cockpit sole is only about 6” above the water line.

Being low, and towards the center of motion, it is a very comfortable place to be. Unlike the picture above with the big open cockpit ours is much lower than the aft deck, it’s anwell, but with two 4” drains straight down.

The aft cabin is for sleeping and storage, period. That seems to work out for us. Just psychologically it’s a different space, various arguments and strict seems to stay outside the bedroom. I’m sure that’s not for everyone.

If I’m single handing then the aft cabin becomes a mega storage space. I sleep on the Stb we’re in a Lee cloth, but we also have a pilot berth. That makes the boat much smaller and more manageable for solo me, just my size.

Our 33’er obviously has an off set v berth sized for two. That works also, but is not really for long term live aboard.

[MicHughV]

ah yes, I had a monitor wind vane on my Roberts 38. It was a pain in the arse leading the steering lines to the center cockpit wheel. The steering lines went directly over an aft hatch (the lazarette), which I couldn't open with the monitor steering at work. I had to arrange to make a " quick disconnect" where it went over the lazarrette hatch cover. The monitor steering lines ( s/s cables for less stretch considering the long run)) were always attached to the wheel, further impeding limited space in the center cockpit.
Another poster liked the center cockpit...ahem...on an Oyster 53...that is a very big boat, far more appropriate for a center cockpit layout.
If you think about it, the center cockpit on an Oyster 53, would put it right about where the aft cockpit would be on a smaller boat...like my Roberts 38.
No question, center cockpits offer a lot of neat advantages...but it takes a large boat....in my opinion...over 48' in order to effectively utilize a center cockpit.
Finally, the definition of " center cockpit" can be misleading. On a small boat, yes, indeed it would be near the center of the boat....but a large boat....like the Oyster 53, the " center" cockpit is a lot behind the " center " of that boat.
At any case, you asked for an opinion, and everybody will have an opinion based on their personal experience.
I stand by my opinion, that a center cockpit on a small boat is impractical and its touted advantages are outweighed by its disadvantages.
Finally, an Oyster 53 has a price tag in the 7 figure range. If you are going to spend that kind of money, you certainly have many choices to pick from.

[MicHughV]

I can't let this thread go without pointing out another advantage of the aft cockpit.
On my Landfall 42, I had dinghy davits. To get on the dinghy, I had to lower the dinghy, open the stern gate, fold down some s/s steps, climb down the transom and clamber on board. It was a giant pain in the arse, then I had to slacken the davit dinghy lines to release the dinghy. Getting back on the boat was an equal pain in the butt.
On the Beneteau I also had dinghy davits, but I simply walked on and off the dinghy right onto a ledge on the stern. No steps needed. It was a snap. I could use the davits as a convenient hand hold.
If you are 18 years old, climbing up and down a transom will likely not be a challenge.
But try doing that when you are over 40 and have gained a few pounds.
Finally, if you are trying to mount, or dismount an outboard engine from your dinghy...having an open stern cockpit is lightyears ahead of trying this from a center cockpit.
I speak from experience, take it for what you will.

[Moody46CC]

have a Moody 46" center cockpit boat. The rig is cutter, so the mast and hence center cockpit are further aft than "center." Probably between 60-70% of the boat length going aft from the bow. Sure seems like more when I'm cleaning from the bow aft!

Lots of good pros and cons noted in previous emails, but I will point out that in a larger boat, the salon is not that truncated at all. The center cockpit layout is wonderful when we have company--the company is in the forward berth (it is not technically a V-berth as it has an island bed) and they have their own head/shower, while my wife and I are in the aft cabin with our own head/shower. There is a small room opposite the forward head with bunk beds that is nice for kids or storage. In between the fore and aft cabins are the salon, nav station, galley and the passageway aft. The distance allows some privacy to both parties.

I have heard good arguments for both styles, and I have sailed both styles. It boils down to personal preference. In my case, the wife made her preference very clear and sailing alone was not a desirable option, so the choice was really easy.