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Old 13-09-2007, 14:23   #16
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I have sailed the coasts of Vancouver and area, Great Lakes, BVI and Cuba.

Coastal sailing, and getting home by a certain date often require sailing upwind, hence my interest in the pointing capabilities.

I would have just picked a fin keel boat, but because I am looking at a longer term investment and colder weather, with ice, I am looking at aluminimum boats, and I have found that most of these that are for sale are either centerboarders or twin keels.

I wil certainly be sailing the northwest, (deeper colder usually), and hope to go south down the US coast and visit Hawaii.

The island sailing and fitting into small harbor is also important so I really kind of like the idea of a centerboarder. Especially one that has a really deep max draft and a moderate min draft.

Really I have found several boats that I would like to look at purchasing and not one has a fin keel.

So I am hoping to convince myself that these boats are okay.
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Old 13-09-2007, 14:46   #17
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PNW to Alaska

If this is your primary region, I would suggest a deeper fin keel with a tall rig, and a powerful motor. Reasonably deep twin keels or a deepish centreboard or centreboard/swing keel combination could also be good combinations for getting snugged up to the shoals at the heads of the fjords, but are not the optimal for this region.

For going to Hawai'i, I would suggest chartering a boat there (if possible, which it really isn't). Much less expensive and more time actually island sailing. Or see if you can charter a boat from California to sail there and back. I'm saying this because a boat designed for the cold waters and weather of the PNW is not designed for the heat and humidity of the tropics, and as you are already aware the anchoring/gunkholing in coral is very different from rocky fjords.

Again, I suggest you focus on the sailing you really do, the stuff you're doing now, and consider what to do about the dream voyage when you're about to do that.
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Old 13-09-2007, 14:50   #18
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Aloha Jscott,
Amgine has stated it very well.
If you want to know how performance boats perform then just look at the designs of racing boats built for round the world or America's cup or Transpac. They are built for pointability and speed. They don't have twin keels or centerboards/daggerboards. They are designed to point to weather when the need arises.
Every design is a compromise. Understand that most cruising vessels are designed to go comfortably with the trades and seldom need to perform extremely well to weather. I want to weather performance so I have a fin keel. However, I give up the ability to keep a downwind course without using constant attention at the wheel or tiller. An electronic steering system or self steering can take care of that but requires more energy than would be necessary with a full keel. If you want comfort downwind then a full keel is best.
If you need shallow draft then centerboard or twin keels might be better. For trailer sailing centerboard or daggerboard are easier to launch and recover.
Maybe this has been said already? Good luck in your decision.
Kind Regards,
JohnL
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Old 13-09-2007, 15:20   #19
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Yeah I understand the fin keel in the PNW, especially going up the fijords, that was my going in position. I ahve had to stay out of a few nice nooks and coves cause of draft limitations.

I don't agree with the statement that cold weather boats don' do well in the tropics though, just depends on the ventilation systems installed.

The next issue is I would have a hard time owning a boat and not using it but chartering a boat, although I have found a couple of Hawaii charters.

The boats I have been looking at all claim to have sailed Alaska to Mexico and Hawaii.

I think I will have to experiment with a few of these boats and just see how well they point and sail down wind.

As always don't buy an unknown quantity.
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Old 13-09-2007, 15:34   #20
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Also lets try to put some numbers to the issues,

How much closer to the wind can a fin keel sail, than a centerboard.

If this cannot be answered in general terms than certainly both types can be considered for the service I am talking about.
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Old 13-09-2007, 17:13   #21
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Aloha jscott,
In one club I belonged to we had Rhodes 19s both fin keel and centerboard. The fin keelers would sail about 3 degrees closer to the wind and not slip to leeward as much as the centerboarders but to be honest we never did a scientific study. The centerboarders could perform a bit faster downwind with the board up.
For cruising purposes I don't think it makes a "hill of beans." Just remember that centerboarders have more mechanical gear that can break and centerboards can be jammed in the down position and occasionally the up position (not nearly so often).
Good luck in your choice.
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Old 14-09-2007, 07:52   #22
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Thanks a lot for sharing your experience. I think I am leaning towards it doesn't make a hill of beans side of life.

Now I guess I have to get comfortable with the mechanics of the things.

Hydraulics seem "bomb proof" to me, especially if the cylinder is not submerged all the time, and the operator has the brains not to overstress everything if something gets stuck.

Repair should be easy, and available, most places have a front-end loader or two running around.

Perhaps a little heavier than cables though.
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Old 14-09-2007, 20:13   #23
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jscott - Wow - you just made a lightbulb come on.

From a systems complexity standpoint, why have a movable keel if you don't absolutely need it. Just another thing to break while 1,500 miles from a mechanic.
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Old 15-09-2007, 03:50   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jscott View Post
I am new here so...

I am looking for an Aluminium hull sailboat about 45 feet in length, I have only sailed single keel boats.

I read robert bray's discussion about twin keels etc.

What type of keel goes upwind the best,
What type of keel provides bad weather stability the best,
What type dries out the best?
the best one up wind is the FIXED KEEL. drying out is the TWEEN KEEL. another selution to get both is a LIFTING KEEL . I have one, it is a 37ft SOUTHERLY 115, made in England. mind you, once in 8 years you have to drop the keel and have new Cavlar pannents , and new paint on it...not a easy job...we sail our Southerly now for 20 years, we have been to Spain, Potugal, Mallorca, Croatia, Greece, Turkey..and we could always get in a small fishing port as we need just 1 meter to float...!
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Old 15-09-2007, 07:41   #25
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Hello from France and special greeting to Steve from Maungaturoto,

For further details, about Trismus :
The 2 centerboards are placed in tandem (twosome) and there is a long and wide queel to beach and allow to go to windward if the main centerbord was broken...

For Steve : only the main center board have to be down when you are going to winward ! and when you go with the motor to make easier manageable.

Have a look here TRISMUS Voilier de voyage

Kind Regards
and sorry for the very bad english...
Jacques

TRISMUS Voilier de voyage
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Old 15-09-2007, 11:29   #26
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Aloha Trismus,
Your English is much better than my French!
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Old 15-09-2007, 12:35   #27
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Many thanks John for your Aloha !

I know that it's a strong meaning in Hawaii

Jacques
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Old 16-09-2007, 02:04   #28
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Thanks for the note Jaques, I am still experimenting, but am more than happy with our Trismus. We have just got a assymetric headsail for the light airs.
Best Regards,
Steve.
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Old 16-09-2007, 03:05   #29
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Nice to read you Steve,

Have you some photos of Gwalarn with this headsail ?

Best regards
Jacques
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Old 16-09-2007, 05:11   #30
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Just to throw in another option........

Triple Keels

Dunno what they make in Aluminium, but the idea with triple keels being that the boat has a long main keel (but not a fin!), with Bilge Keels each side. The weight of the boat when aground is taken mainly by the main keel, with one of the Bilge Keels being a glorified leg (mine are also the Water tanks)..........the idea being that they are less structural than purely a bilge Keeler, useful depending on what drying mooring / anchoraqe is used as the boat will be subject to a degree of pounding against the seabed before she is fully afloat (and aground) - especially in a swell / bad weather.

As already said the penalty is performance, I am not very technical in this area - but my understanding is that a single fixed keel is the optimum for performance and anything else is a compromise (and each to decide whether it is worthwhile - for me living in an area with 40 a foot tidal range and our harbours being built on dry land and also with an aversion to Marinas (ours are also gated as tidal anyway!) it is a compromise I am happy enough with).
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