'Cement' Boats

[mudnut]

To,"Wheels & Steve",even though I havent the pleasure of owning a yacht yet every time I read posts from you concerning FC's it's like a big dose of chocolate!!!I'm not into speeding all over the great southern ocean's like a bat out of hell,thats not why I intend to buy and live-aboard a yacht,you both impair passion of a medium that like everyone knows has a bad rap.I only hope that people don't realize the FC's potential befor I buy and accordingly put the true value price on them.My ultimate FC is a Hartley Queenslander 35',Wilf O'kell 37',I know you bloaks have bigger but there is only one of me and they are both big enough for my needs.Now here is a Question,"If osmossis is more common in GRP boats would it be reasonable to think that one say 20 to 35yrs old would tend to be a bit of a long term risk given its age ?,&,If it were in good sound condition without osmossis problems would that indicate that it probably wont go through that problem,or do all GRP boats finaly succumb to it?"Mudnut

[CaptainK]

There's still, a strong possibility. That I might go ahead and build myself a ferro-cement boat.

Colin Brookes of New Zealand has some wonderful designs in his catalogue of ferro boat designs.

http://www.ferroboats.com


Alan Wheeler. I'm sure, you have heard alot about this man, and about his boat designs. Right?

[BC Mike]

In Canadian West Coast waters where there are lots of dead heads, the cement boats have developed a reputation for sinking after hitting a dead head. A dead head is a log like a telepohone pole that has become saturated with water. It floats at the same angle as if it were in use as a pole, with only a few inches above the water. When a sail boat hits the dead head it goes down and then comes back up to hit the boat near the middle. This impact damages the bottom of the cement boat which if left unattended can later cause a large piece to fall out, and sink the boat. Water ingress rusts the " chicken wyre " which blows the hull apart.
Michael

[CaptainK]

Mike.

You are right about the chicken wire causing a easy blow out like you mentioned.

But if you use heavy gauge wire mesh. Like the kind construction workers use when laying concrete sidewalks and building foundations. Then using that would make a ferro hull a whole lot stronger than the chicken wire that you mentioned.

Alot of backyard boatbuilders back in the 60's and 70's took too many short cuts. And used chicken wire. They were poorly built. And they didn't pay too much attention to the building plans. Thus making poorly built ferro-cement boats. Also this is exactly how they gave ferro's a bad name!!

[Alan Wheeler]

Hey Steve, maybe I shouldn't reply to this one till you buy a boat By the way, a Queenslander is a very lovely boat and very well sized boat for it's length.

K, sorry mate, you have only half the story. The chicken mesh has no relation to the steel armature. The mesh is the medium that ties the cement plaster together and "holds" it over the steel armature. If the CORRECT mesh has been applied correctly, (and this is were many mistakes were made) then there is no way the plaster can "blow off" The plaster is not over top of the mesh, it is an integral part of the plaster. "IF" the mesh could rust, which is most unlikely, then it will only rust out of the plaster, but the plaster will still remain intacked and well adhered to the steel armature below.

Mike, I would suggest ANY boat would have suffered seriuose damage hitting the same deadhead that could cause a FC hull to sink. I have seen some very seriuose incidents now and FC has come through either come through unscathed or has been able to be repaired with no signs of damage afterwards.

K, back to Colin Brookes, colin was a partner with Richard Hartely. The designs are all Hartely designs. They are old now, but the basic hulls are still very relevant today. It's just the inside layouts that could be tickled up a little with some modern layout. Pictures of mine show what I mean. Most don't realise she is a Tahitian and all have asked what she is made from because she doesn't look FC.
I also suggest you look at buying a Second hand FC boat. You simply can't build a boat cheaper than you can buy one for. The hull is only a very tiny fraction of the overall cost and the finishing is what stopped so many people in their tracks with building theses boats.
Here in NZ, you can pick up FC unfinished projects even today. I know of one right now that all it needs is the mast and rigging. Rest is ready to go and they are asking NZ$18K for it. Thats US$9K.

[CaptainK]

Well Alan.

I thought I had that right. Thanks for clearing that up Alan. I still never finish reading this one book about building ferro cement boats. It sits on my bookshelf collecting dust. Last year I had plans on buying Colin Brookes book on building ferrocement boats.

And again you may be right about buying a "used" ferro boat. Even Kai mentioned that to me. I know Kai used to live on a ferro cement boat. If I remember correctly, they loved the size and layout. And it even had a bath tub on it.

I suppose if I wanted a really good ferrocement boat. I would love to come down there to NZ and get one from your people Alan. They really seem to know about ferro boats more than anyone else. Since pretty much everybody else seemed to dropped the full knowledge of building one out of their minds. But held onto the knowledge about the negatives of ferro up here in the US!!

[Alan Wheeler]

I do suggest you buy Colins book. It will help to understand a lot more. Although, I don't know the book you already have, maybe it's a good one as well. The big benifit of Colins book is that it is not that old. It now has 30-40years of looking back type experiance and draws on the things that worked and didn't work and the reasons why. They didn't have the "in hind sight" experiance back then, so I consider many of the more recent hulls being built would possibly be far supperior to the older hulls, providing the experiance drawn from that book is utilised.
I have heard someone somewhere comment about after having read his book, he still didn't believe one point and would consider doing what ever a different way. But don't think the years of experiance available in that book should be taken so lightly.
K, if you really wanted to build a hull from scratch, don't let me put you off, it can be very rewarding knowing "you did it". But just beware, it will not save you money, nor time. For some, the goal is building, for some others, it's building and sailing what you built and then for many others, it's all about the sailing. If it's all about the sailing for you, then don't allow yourself to get bogged down with the building. It will become a drag long term. And as I said, it will not save you money. A winch still costs the same, a motor still costs the same and a sail still costs the same, if you get what I mean.

[mudnut]

Now it comes down to "Smart and honest chocolate".Yep thats what it's all about.Honest,ya dont have to worry about that here!!,Smart,well ya already heard the smart bit.Buy a good second hand FC.The fact that the majority of people on this forum are from the USA makes that opinion sound rediculouse, but thats only because they had more hippies back then when it was popular to build in that combi free love material,OOPS,I meant FC.Fact is up untill 12mts ago,I knew nothing about yachts,fact is I probably still dont,but FC's took my fancy and that is what I have seeked out in my search for infomation.I do think that Wheels was wrong by saying "It wont save you money or time by building your own".Longevity must play into the factor,If built correctly,It will outlast most other mediums inturn saving you money.Less maintenence in terms of $$ means more money to be spent elswhere.This is all subjective thought on my behalf and really comes from no sound knowledge so I dont mean to sound orthoritive on the subject but something that costs twice as much and lasts three times longer seems like a better choice in terms of longevity and value for money spent.But for those that dont have the money to build from scratch,buying a good 2nd hand ferro is the cheapest option left IMOP."Did I waffle on a bit too much??"Mudnut.

[CaptainK]

Alan.

I do intend on buying Colin Brookes book. Like I mentioned in my last post. The more information on ferro-cement boats. The better. I feel that having as much information on anything is much better than no information on that type of boat.

Here's the link to a couple of his books.

http://www.hartley-boats.com/books.html

Also Alan. I already know that the price of equipment like winches and so forth will not change because of the hull choice of medium. I ma already aware of that fact. But thanks for mentioning about that!!

And Mudnut. I'm glad that you have an interest in ferro's too!!

[Steve Kidson]

Put simply, no matter what your opinion on the merits or otherwise of ferro as a hull material, the fact is that you can buy a whole lot more boat for your buck in ferro. I do not want to be seen as a "ferro fanatic" nor will I try to persuade anyone that ferro is the ultimate hull material; I doubt such a thing exists. Its just that ferro seems to polarise like no other.

If speed and other such issues are not major consideration, a ferro hull performs as well as any other in the majority of situations. In fact, the additional weight can make for a more seakindly and stable boat in some conditions.

I know that there will be those who want to quote engineering calculations saying this is better than that, and that in a collision, such and such a material will be better than another. I say, I don't care because my boat gives me great enjoyment, and its what I can afford to follow my dream. Sure I would love a new Benetau or similar, but I can't afford $250,000+. My ferro Hartley does much the same job!! It costs the same to anti-foul my Hartley as the same size Hunter; mooring, berthing and haulout also cost the same. My engine needs to be serviced at the same intervals any any other. My winches, sheets, sails and other rigging are no different to the next boat on the water.

Can I suggest that if we are selecting hull materials on the basis of what will be best in a collision, we should seriously take a long hard look at ourselves and ask why?? Are we planning to hit things?? How often do we run into things?? Is this through carelesness, or is it a matter of genuine accident? I know that accidents and collisions occur, but the first and foremost duty a Master has is "To keep a proper lookout" and in doing such, most collisions should be able to be avoided. Are we doubting our own ability to control our vessel, that we need to have a safety net of "don't worry, my hull is up to a bit of bash and crash!" If this is so, should you be on the water at all?

Do we select cars on the same basis? I know I don't.

Ferro will not be for everyone, just as wood and fibreglass have appeal to some and not others.

Many need to agree to disagree on the choice of hull material, rather than try to convert one to another.

Just a few of my thoughts.

Regards

Steve

[Alan Wheeler]

Good points Steve and Mudnut, I never thought of factoring in longevity. Good point also.
Steve, I also agree with your point about trying or not trying to convert one another. Why is it that FC has such a polorising opinion?
My view point is that I find so many "false views" that have lead to opinions that have never been substantiated or are from a firend of a mate that was a mate of a friend and the story becomes like a chinese wisper. And suddenly the story is born and every FC hull in the world suffers from the aledged ailement. I know of Timber, GRP and Glass over ply constructions that have been lost due to running aground or hitting an object or fire or what ever and yet not one argument in the negative about how any of those other materials are therefore a negative to buy. Yet a few real bad eggs built years ago have been created a detrimental view of ALL FC hulls still afloat today. Interesting.

[mudnut]

Hey K,I have allways had an intrest in FC's since researching to aquire a yacht to live on.At the start of my research I found so much negativity about it but then stumbled on "Wheels" and his knowledge on FC's from that I delved a bit deeper into what I could access from the net and hence my belief that It was a great medium for a hull.The only downfall to FC's that I have been able to find is in the construction,NOT THE MEDIUM ITSELF,and the fact that without the anual or monthly upkeep any boat can turn to sh#t,even FC's,If money was not a priority I would moore than likely to go for something older and made of wood and classic like HMS Bounty or the Cutty Sark or OOP'S I'll stop dreaming now.Mudnut.

[CaptainK]

Well Mudnut.

I wouldn't mind owning "Old Ironsides" myself. She's a fine old wooden former warship of her time. But.......that's a "real" wood boat.

Also. Money is always the issue when we're dealing with any boat. No matter what material medium it's built from.

[AuzzieM]

I own a Hartley 34foot Ferro Queenslander..great yacht, built around 1975 and still
going strong. The noise suppression and no condensation are good atributes as well...
Very Happy with it.

[liberty16]

Do FC hulls have any advantages over Steel?