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Old 30-07-2013, 10:56   #16
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Re: Category "A" Sailboats

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Originally Posted by muskoka View Post
As an ex-North Americano I can offer a few shortcuts to make dealing with all those messy foreign standards easier:

1. No one uses 120V power anywhere outside of North America unless they're losers. Only 240V is capable of properly firing up a Bass-O-Matic for those important sundowners. Even better if you can produce 3 phase power.

2. Imperial is for wimps. Real men use metric - 150mm is more impressive than 6" when stamped on the side of a condom.

3. The French can sail around the world non-stop without sleeping or shaving. Kiwi's are always faster than anyone else. Brits are fun to hang out with despite their penchant for warm beer. Italians make boat stuff that just looks damned good.

CE is full of bureaucratic garbage? Point me towards any government or "recognized official body" standard which is a clear expression of logical thought devoid of idiosyncrasies. It doesn't exist anywhere.
Muskoka for President

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Old 30-07-2013, 11:09   #17
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Re: Category "A" Sailboats

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Originally Posted by valhalla360 View Post
Never said it was "worthless" but in my research there are aspects that are good and others that are beaurocatic garbage. (For example: I believe there are requirements for wiring based around 240v power. Of course no American boat will meet those because it's designed for 120v power. It makes no difference in it's ability to cross oceans but by the letter of the law, it fails.)

The point of my comment was:
- Are you trying to bring a foriegn made boat home to the EU and therefore must meet CE requriements for insurance?
- Do you think it will provide better resale value?
- Do you think if it has the CE rating, it's the perfect boat to round cape horn in a full gale?

Always good to know why someone is asking the question.
You pick virtually the one thing that is specific to EU boats to prove the WHOLE RCD is defective ! ( the CE is the mark assigned not the process BTW)

the Recreational Craft Directive, was brought in , in the main by UK industry demand to harmonise the many standards that existed throughout Europe for leisure boat certification. German, Italian , french etc

The primary purpose of the RCD, is very different from the ABYC, ABYC is a code of construction, RCD is a documented quality system, rather like ISO 9000. IN fact when the RCD was written very few ISO standards actually existed.

The RCD actually contains very little prescriptive requirements for specific systems. Meeting ISO requirements ( like standards in GAs and DC/AC etc) are only one way to demonstrate RCD compliance.

The Categorisation of Boats is a coarse way to try and put different vessels into different quality requirements, the requirements for a narrow boat on an English canal are very different from a ocean going yacht and the Category status is an attempt to address that and to ensure that more costly compliance is appropriate for higher categories

Does Cat a make a great sea boat , or course not, it does however help to ensure that the builder has a proper quality controlled and documented production facility, meets the minimum requirements for offshore work and that the boat is at least reasonable competently assembled.

its entirely possible to manufacture a 110VAC boat to RCD standards, just not one wired to US standards.

dave
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Old 30-07-2013, 11:11   #18
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Re: Category "A" Sailboats

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
Muskoka for President

dave
+2

My thoughts exactly.

Money=CE=Money...
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Old 30-07-2013, 11:12   #19
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Re: Category "A" Sailboats

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Originally Posted by Andrew B. View Post
+2

My thoughts exactly.

Money=CE=Money...
Theres no money in it for governments , the RCD suits bis builders with deep pockets over the small "over the garage" operation, that was always a suspicion of why it was cheerlead by big marine business interests.

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Old 30-07-2013, 11:13   #20
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Re: Category "A" Sailboats

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Originally Posted by MarkJ View Post
Yes. As a generalisation ocean cruising has become safer and one of the reasons is the larger boats doing it.

Robin Knox Johnson sailed a 32 footer because he couldn't afford a larger boat,
Chichester in his rtw the wrong way sailed a 52 footer because he could afford it.
I though Chay Blith was the first one to go the 'wrong' way.
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Old 30-07-2013, 11:16   #21
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Re: Category "A" Sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by muskoka View Post
As an ex-North Americano I can offer a few shortcuts to make dealing with all those messy foreign standards easier:

1. No one uses 120V power anywhere outside of North America unless they're losers. Only 240V is capable of properly firing up a Bass-O-Matic for those important sundowners. Even better if you can produce 3 phase power.

2. Imperial is for wimps. Real men use metric - 150mm is more impressive than 6" when stamped on the side of a condom.

3. The French can sail around the world non-stop without sleeping or shaving. Kiwi's are always faster than anyone else. Brits are fun to hang out with despite their penchant for warm beer. Italians make boat stuff that just looks damned good.

CE is full of bureaucratic garbage? Point me towards any government or "recognized official body" standard which is a clear expression of logical thought devoid of idiosyncrasies. It doesn't exist anywhere.
No really, tell how it is and don't hold back this time.
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Old 30-07-2013, 11:36   #22
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Re: Category "A" Sailboats

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
Theres no money in it for governments , the RCD suits bis builders with deep pockets over the small "over the garage" operation, that was always a suspicion of why it was cheerlead by big marine business interests.

dave
Doesn't really matter all that much to my bank account who gets the extra money it cost to get the "CE".

While considering a larger boat I was informed upon my inquiry that to get the "CE" it took three things. Different hatches, supposedly accurate diagrams for the various systems, and a extra $25K+. You will not convince me that some government official, or bureaucrat isn't getting a piece of that action. I am sure there, as always, are other fingers in that pie, including the builders, suppliers, designers, and the bosses secretary...
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Old 30-07-2013, 11:40   #23
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Re: Category "A" Sailboats

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Originally Posted by Andrew B. View Post
Doesn't really matter all that much to my bank account who gets the extra money it cost to get the "CE".

While considering a larger boat I was informed upon my inquiry that to get the "CE" it took three things. Different hatches, supposedly accurate diagrams for the various systems, and a extra $25K+. You will not convince me that some government official, or bureaucrat isn't getting a piece of that action. I am sure there, as always, are other fingers in that pie, including the builders, suppliers, designers, and the bosses secretary...
post construction certification is potentially that type of money, but thats high side stuff unless its a big boat. for series production RCD compliance adds virtually nothing.

dave
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Old 30-07-2013, 11:44   #24
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Re: Category "A" Sailboats

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Originally Posted by Adelie View Post
I though Chay Blith was the first one to go the 'wrong' way.
Yes he was. And he used a 59-foot boat called British Steel
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Old 30-07-2013, 12:19   #25
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Re: Category "A" Sailboats

Not sure exactly what is "Class A". Would like to know .... but from the gist of this thread ... Pacific Seacraft is still made in USA ... although they should have changed the name to "Atlantic Seacraft" given their current NC location ...
Wouldn't a Pacific Seacraft qualify as small blue-water boat made in USA?
Totally newbie ... please feel free to enlighten me if I've got it wrong.

Their website shows brand new 31' and 34' boats which look finer and more practical than many larger boats.

Cheers,
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Old 30-07-2013, 12:26   #26
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Re: Category "A" Sailboats

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Originally Posted by NatKat View Post
Not sure exactly what is "Class A". Would like to know .... but from the gist of this thread ... Pacific Seacraft is still made in USA ... although they should have changed the name to "Atlantic Seacraft" given their current NC location ...
Wouldn't a Pacific Seacraft qualify as small blue-water boat made in USA?
Totally newbie ... please feel free to enlighten me if I've got it wrong.

Cheers,
NatKat
I presume the OP wants to buy a US made sailboat, but wishes to import it into the EU,

As an alternative to seeking a US RCD-able boat ( I know Island Packet do several CE compliant models), you could also undertake a post construction assessment, which along with perhaps a few mods, will render it compliant.

dave
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Old 30-07-2013, 20:10   #27
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Re: Category "A" Sailboats

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
You pick virtually the one thing that is specific to EU boats to prove the WHOLE RCD is defective ! ( the CE is the mark assigned not the process BTW)

the Recreational Craft Directive, was brought in , in the main by UK industry demand to harmonise the many standards that existed throughout Europe for leisure boat certification. German, Italian , french etc

The primary purpose of the RCD, is very different from the ABYC, ABYC is a code of construction, RCD is a documented quality system, rather like ISO 9000. IN fact when the RCD was written very few ISO standards actually existed.

The RCD actually contains very little prescriptive requirements for specific systems. Meeting ISO requirements ( like standards in GAs and DC/AC etc) are only one way to demonstrate RCD compliance.

The Categorisation of Boats is a coarse way to try and put different vessels into different quality requirements, the requirements for a narrow boat on an English canal are very different from a ocean going yacht and the Category status is an attempt to address that and to ensure that more costly compliance is appropriate for higher categories

Does Cat a make a great sea boat , or course not, it does however help to ensure that the builder has a proper quality controlled and documented production facility, meets the minimum requirements for offshore work and that the boat is at least reasonable competently assembled.

its entirely possible to manufacture a 110VAC boat to RCD standards, just not one wired to US standards.

dave
Again, the point is what is the purpose in looking for a Cat A boat?

Lots of govt regulations are stupid (regardless of which side of the pond you are on).

I know of a couple of models that at one time were Cat A certified but the American manufacturer choose to drop the certification rather as they didn't sell enough to people who wanted the certification to bother with the paperwork. So two boats built to the same standards and quality but one is Cat A and the other isn't.

If the OP is just looking for some low level base line of a seaworthy boat, either is equally good.

If the OP wants to import it to Europe, the certification makes a big difference.
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