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Old 17-09-2014, 14:55   #106
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Re: Catalina or Hunter?

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Originally Posted by JK n Smitty View Post
How many times do cruising boats really hit submerged objects at sea? How often does a little flex in the hull result in water gushing into the hull? How many times do rudders just fall off? How many boats are dismasted? These are all very rare events that get a lot of traffic on forums but aren't really that big of deal in the real world. Can you put a number on having watertight front bulk head that will lessen the changes of sinking should you encounter a one in a million event like hitting a partially submerged shipping container?
My friend the sail club maintenance manager would beg to differ. He sees constantly their boats being driven hard both by club pros when racing and by newbies who don't know any better and find every rock in the harbor and kiss every bridge regularly. Their club constantly buys and sells their boats to keep up with the times and customer preferences (not to mention rigorous and vigilant maintanence schedule) so over the years he has a good idea what is junk and what is quality. He tells me he still prefers an older (pre-outsourced to 3rd world) quality boat to a new Bavaria or Hanse but their clientele want what they saw at the last boat show so the club owners oblige. He laughs saying that these new boats will keep him employed indefinitely as they are a constant headache during the season's use. He compares this use to going offshore only instead of being challenged by the elements the boats get challenged by the users. And don't get him started on the Volvo engines and sail drives or brand new Hanse 41 having a 6 gal waste tank and no room for a bigger refit.
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Old 17-09-2014, 15:12   #107
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Re: Catalina or Hunter?

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My friend the sail club maintenance manager would beg to differ. He sees constantly their boats being driven hard both by club pros when racing and by newbies who don't know any better and find every rock in the harbor and kiss every bridge regularly. Their club constantly buys and sells their boats to keep up with the times and customer preferences (not to mention rigorous and vigilant maintanence schedule) so over the years he has a good idea what is junk and what is quality. He tells me he still prefers an older (pre-outsourced to 3rd world) quality boat to a new Bavaria or Hanse but their clientele want what they saw at the last boat show so the club owners oblige. He laughs saying that these new boats will keep him employed indefinitely as they are a constant headache during the season's use. He compares this use to going offshore only instead of being challenged by the elements the boats get challenged by the users. And don't get him started on the Volvo engines and sail drives or brand new Hanse 41 having a 6 gal waste tank and no room for a bigger refit.
Really?! You are going to compare cruising, even coastal cruising to noobs hitting rocks and racers? I saw a Swan hit another boat in a race last year. The thing was totaled. So Swans must suck then.

And of course he prefers the older boats. They are easier to maintain as they generally have less systems that are easier to access. The first time I had to rebed a stanchion on my Catalina I had to cut fiberglass to access the nuts. But I only had to do that once per stanchion. Now you can access them without all of that hassle. And they are bedded with butyl tape compared to polysulfide.
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Old 17-09-2014, 15:33   #108
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Re: Catalina or Hunter?

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Really?! You are going to compare cruising, even coastal cruising to noobs hitting rocks and racers? I saw a Swan hit another boat in a race last year. The thing was totaled. So Swans must suck then.

And of course he prefers the older boats. They are easier to maintain as they generally have less systems that are easier to access. The first time I had to rebed a stanchion on my Catalina I had to cut fiberglass to access the nuts. But I only had to do that once per stanchion. Now you can access them without all of that hassle. And they are bedded with butyl tape compared to polysulfide.
So you agree with me? What's the point of having more potential problems which will eat into your sailing time and budget? What about things which cannot be easily rectified such as a 6 or 9gal waste tank and no room nearby to install at least a 20gal one? Not to mention inherent tenderness of more recent boats. It's ok if you are having sundowners at the dockside but not ok if you're beating in the Buzzards Bay against the chop. My first boat, 1982 US27, even with a shallow, 3.5' keel was less tender than most modern 35 footers. And it had a hull speed of 6.5.

My comparessment to newbies was to compare the actual hours sailed/motors to the average cruiser. And why is it so improtant to you who bangs the boat - the waves offshore or the bad sailor near the marina? The result is the same - good boats survive at higher rates or with less damage, bad boats at lower rates or with more damage. It's as simple as that. Not to mention the difference in well thought out details and systems and the boat show driven crap that passes today for "innovation" and glitz.
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Old 17-09-2014, 15:44   #109
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Re: Catalina or Hunter?

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So you agree with me? What's the point of having more potential problems which will eat into your sailing time and budget?
The point is, some of us like:

hot showers
flushing toilets
refrigeration
stoves, ovens, and coffeemakers
comfortable and spacious accommodations
electric windlasses and winches
autopilots
furling sails
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Old 17-09-2014, 16:07   #110
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Re: Catalina or Hunter?

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What's the point of having more potential problems which will eat into your sailing time and budget? What about things which cannot be easily rectified such as a 6 or 9gal waste tank and no room nearby to install at least a 20gal one?
This is some of the trade offs. The initial purchase price of the boat is cheaper. You can also get a more modern boat compared to buying an older boat. As I have said in previous posts, boats are a series of compromises.

As far as the holding tank issue, how about a composting head? I also haven't paid much attention to the Hanse or Bavaria boats as I don't like the esthetics so I can't comment much on those boats.

Quote:
Not to mention inherent tenderness of more recent boats. It's ok if you are having sundowners at the dockside but not ok if you're beating in the Buzzards Bay against the chop. My first boat, 1982 US27, even with a shallow, 3.5' keel was less tender than most modern 35 footers. And it had a hull speed of 6.5.
I guess my first response is to question the whole "tenderness" assertion. I think this is the typical case of initial stability vs. overall stability that you see when you compare modern designed hulls to those of the 1970s.

I attached a performance comparison of a US27 to a Catalina 270 (newest boat of similar size). The look pretty similar. I also did it against my Catalina 310. Obviously the 310 is a much heavier boat but it is also as "modern" as the designs come with a wide beam carried aft, flat bottom, high freeboard, etc.

From experience I can tell you that I sail fine into BB chop. But you have to reef different than you do a traditional style boat. The modern designs like to sail on their flat bottoms.

Quote:
My comparessment to newbies was to compare the actual hours sailed/motors to the average cruiser. And why is it so improtant to you who bangs the boat - the waves offshore or the bad sailor near the marina? The result is the same - good boats survive at higher rates or with less damage, bad boats at lower rates or with more damage. It's as simple as that. Not to mention the difference in well thought out details and systems and the boat show driven crap that passes today for "innovation" and glitz.
So hitting a rock is the same as sailing offshore? And older boats don't get holed from hitting rocks? Can you show me the statistics of modern designs having more damage and lower rates of survival than older boats?



The second part of your response reminds me of a quote I read on innovation and new ideas. I don't know who said it or have the exact words but it was something like this:
  • Everything invented before you were 30 years old is good, quality products and ideas;
  • Everything invented from when you were 30 to 40 years old is new, and;
  • Everything invented after you were 40 years old is crap.
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Old 17-09-2014, 16:23   #111
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Re: Catalina or Hunter?

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Originally Posted by JK n Smitty View Post
The second part of your response reminds me of a quote I read on innovation and new ideas. I don't know who said it or have the exact words but it was something like this:
  • Everything invented before you were 30 years old is good, quality products and ideas;
  • Everything invented from when you were 30 to 40 years old is new, and;
  • Everything invented after you were 40 years old is crap.
Its from the author Douglas Adams:


Quote:
“I've come up with a set of rules that describe our reactions to technologies:
1. Anything that is in the world when you’re born is normal and ordinary and is just a natural part of the way the world works.
2. Anything that's invented between when you’re fifteen and thirty-five is new and exciting and revolutionary and you can probably get a career in it.
3. Anything invented after you're thirty-five is against the natural order of things.”
Douglas Adams, The Salmon of Doubt
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Old 17-09-2014, 18:55   #112
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pirate Re: Catalina or Hunter?

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Originally Posted by ianjoub View Post
The point is, some of us like:

hot showers
flushing toilets
refrigeration
stoves, ovens, and coffeemakers
comfortable and spacious accommodations
electric windlasses and winches
autopilots
furling sails

The rest of us would rather be sailing.
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Old 17-09-2014, 19:09   #113
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Catalina or Hunter?

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The rest of us would rather be sailing.

Perhaps you should be posting on sailing anarchy not the Cruiser's Forum.


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Old 17-09-2014, 19:28   #114
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Re: Catalina or Hunter?

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Originally Posted by ianjoub View Post
The point is, some of us like:

hot showers
flushing toilets
refrigeration
stoves, ovens, and coffeemakers
comfortable and spacious accommodations
electric windlasses and winches
autopilots
furling sails
I don't get your point. I have EVERYTHING you have listed on my 34 year old 36' boat and more. Just this August installed hard top, roler furling main, 4 110W solar panels, etc, etc. And I still get more comfortable and just as fast of a ride as anyone will get in a 5 to 10 year old modern production boat of the same size. For 1/10 of the price. And your point is?
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Old 17-09-2014, 19:36   #115
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Re: Catalina or Hunter?

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I don't get your point. I have EVERYTHING you have listed on my 34 year old 36' boat and more. Just this August installed hard top, roler furling main, 4 110W solar panels, etc, etc. And I still get more comfortable and just as fast of a ride as anyone will get in a 5 to 10 year old modern production boat of the same size. For 1/10 of the price. And your point is?

If there were an older boat with a walk-through transom and walk around queen master berth with an inter spring mattress that sails best at less than 20 degrees of heel under 35 feet I would buy it in a heart beat. But I don't think the exist. Never mind other updates.


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Old 17-09-2014, 19:45   #116
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Re: Catalina or Hunter?

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If there were an older boat with a walk-through transom and walk around queen master berth with an inter spring mattress that sails best at less than 20 degrees of heel under 35 feet I would buy it in a heart beat. But I don't think the exist. Never mind other updates.
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Hmm, I'd never have those as my reqs for a sailboat unless it was to be a liveaboard in a marina. My v-berth is about 7+ft long with 6" cushions, each other berth is 6'4" long or longer with 4" cushions and I've added a swim platform and plumbed an outdoor shower (on top of hot shower in the head) which is a blast to use. When we were designing the platform we made sure it can handle 3-4 good sized people at the same time without a problem. And I'm still way under $50K overall.
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Old 17-09-2014, 19:46   #117
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Re: Catalina or Hunter?

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I don't get your point. I have EVERYTHING you have listed on my 34 year old 36' boat and more. Just this August installed hard top, roler furling main, 4 110W solar panels, etc, etc. And I still get more comfortable and just as fast of a ride as anyone will get in a 5 to 10 year old modern production boat of the same size. For 1/10 of the price. And your point is?

You have a freshwater head and electric winches on a 36 footer ?
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Old 17-09-2014, 19:53   #118
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Re: Catalina or Hunter?

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Hmm, I'd never have those as my reqs for a sailboat unless it was to be a liveaboard in a marina. My v-berth is about 7+ft long with 6" cushions, each other berth is 6'4" long or longer with 4" cushions and I've added a swim platform and plumbed an outdoor shower (on top of hot shower in the head) which is a blast to use. When we were designing the platform we made sure it can handle 3-4 good sized people at the same time without a problem. And I'm still way under $50K overall.

Still a vee berth so you still have to do acrobatics to get in and out. The chance of getting up to use the head in the middle of the night without waking the wife is minimal.

I would also be curious about the swim platform. I haven't seen one on a sailboat that meets the parameters you said and is still safe in a following sea.


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Old 17-09-2014, 19:54   #119
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Re: Catalina or Hunter?

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You have a freshwater head and electric winches on a 36 footer ?
Why do I need a freshwater head? More things to break and fix. As far as electric winches, I've installed an electric windlass but don't see any need for electric winches for now although as I'll be getting older I'll probably will consider those as well. But what's the point of paying 100s of K for a newer boat just for those when I can install them on my boat for a few K's?

I'm fascinated by people's view of boats. It's just a piece of a plastic hull with add-ons. No sense AFAIK to pay 100s of K's when you can get same or nearly the same thing for 10s of K's and you still end up with same performance, comfort, etc. Unless of course you're a competitive racer and each 1/100 of a second counts.
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Old 17-09-2014, 23:26   #120
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Re: Catalina or Hunter?

A freshwater head is literally just too opulent on a 36... If that's seriously the tie breaker on this thread then a new thread should be started about freshwater heads... I mean - does it REALLY matter whether your gray water is fresh or salted?

- wow -

And if you have the budget for the maintenance to accommodate it... Please explain to the rest of us why you're looking at the mid 30's and not the mid 70's -

Because clearly there is money to be spent on completely and totally unnecessary "luxuries" that have no 'real' practical benefit...

If you'd like to toss away money for no real added value or benefit I can give you my routing and acct number...

I'm not too proud for charity - especially considering you were literally going to "flush" your money to begin with -


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