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Old 17-09-2014, 09:42   #91
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Re: Catalina or Hunter?

BZT54,
You r link on the oil canning on the Hunter was exactly what I saw on the one I surveyed, the somewhat astonishing thing is several consider it "normal".
And to be honest I've never heard of a hull failure, but oil canning is a term from aircraft, it results in fatigue and eventual failure (cracking) of the skin that is oil canning.
If the hull is oil canning, it is accumulating fatigue.
It can be fixed, Hunter fixed several under warranty, but apparently only fixed the ones owners complained about, and only if they were in the warranty period.
The final straw in the 356 I surveyed was several separated bulkheads where the tabbing had failed, they were hard to find and you had to know where to look, luckily my surveyor was a Hunter expert and knew exactly where the weak links were.
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Old 17-09-2014, 09:50   #92
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Re: Catalina or Hunter?

ontherocks,
I agree and think you have a good grasp of limitations and what is required.
Not everyone likes the looks of an older boat, most are sort of the teak cave look, and you just really can't change that, it's the way they are built.
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Old 17-09-2014, 09:59   #93
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Re: Catalina or Hunter?

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Originally Posted by ontherocks83 View Post
I would rather by a new/newer/newish production boat (specifically a catalina because i like the new ones but this is beside the point) and spend some money beefing it up
right but the only thing you cannot do is what needed to be done in the first place .. bulkheads and frames tabbed to the hull with heavy cloth and epoxy .. instead of dropping in a grid and interior pan. and on that note i have nothing more to say about it
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Old 17-09-2014, 10:18   #94
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Re: Catalina or Hunter?

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right but the only thing you cannot do is what needed to be done in the first place .. bulkheads and frames tabbed to the hull with heavy cloth and epoxy .. instead of dropping in a grid and interior pan. and on that note i have nothing more to say about it
If you read through one of my earlier posts I addressed this (as far as Catalinas go, I dont know about the others) on the new ones they do all of the things you just mentioned and more. Or did you just post with out knowing whats been said so far on the matter.
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Old 17-09-2014, 11:04   #95
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Re: Catalina or Hunter?

As far as I know all currently manufactured Catlalina's Hunters Benni's Jeaneau's Bavaria's etc are built with full liners. Here is an expert surveyors opinion on that type of construction along with a bunch of other interesting information.
Marine Surveying : Hull Design Defects - Hull Failure Part II - Boats and Yachts Surveys
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Old 17-09-2014, 11:41   #96
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Re: Catalina or Hunter?

You know I think it's actually pretty simple, we get wrapped around the axle about boats built to a price point, but it's not that simple.
Boats are often built to be mission specific, while no one expects a racer to be a good live aboard, why would we think a modern spacious, open designed boat that is roomy and bright on the inside with plenty of large windows to see out of and is meant to be day sailed and maybe coastal cruised is a good boat for open water and bad weather?

And I'll go so far as to say that most probably a boat well suited for the high latitudes might well suck as a day / weekend sailor

These "production" boats are not bad boats, they excel at their mission for which they were built, but just as I won't try to pull a trailer with my Prius to continue the automotive comparisons, I don't expect 50MPG out of my Diesel dually either.
Both excellent vehicles, just completely different missions
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Old 17-09-2014, 11:47   #97
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Re: Catalina or Hunter?

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Originally Posted by neilpride View Post
One thing for sure, there is no bad boats , mostly people buying the wrong boat for a diferent purpose .....
What this guy said a page or two ago.
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Old 17-09-2014, 11:51   #98
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Re: Catalina or Hunter?

In an effort to keep the discussion fact/evidence/experience based, I have a few experiences relevant to the discussion. I'm sure that there are many, many happy Hunter owners -- and I have a lot more respect for sailors of Hunter boats who are out there sailing than armchair sailors or those who rarely leave the dock. People have crossed oceans in rafts -- I have no doubt that it can be done in a modern production sailboat -- it just wouldn't be my choice.

The Hunter I spent the longest on, about 10 days, was a 420 Center cockpit. First, the positive.
*The aft cabin was very spacious and comfortable for a 42' boat.
*On a broad reach, under shortened sail, we made 8+ knots over ground with 17-18 knots true -- I consider that pretty good.
*The motor was well insulated for sound such that in the cockpit it was barely audible and not objectionable.
*I liked the hatches over the shower -- I like fresh air, if possible, instead of steaming up the inside of the boat.

Now the negative.

*This boat didn't feel very solid. As we swung from a ball in 20-25knts my wife was fearful for our wellbeing as the boat was creaking/groaning so much. It didn't fall apart, but it sounded and felt like it might.
*The boat felt beat. Although clean, it felt decided downscale in the interior finish-work. I've been aboard 40+ year old boats that didn't feel as beat.
*The boat would not sail to weather. 45 degrees to apparent wind was the best I could coax out of it.
*The boat would not motor to weather. Heading into 22-25kts, the engine, even at 2500rpm was hard-pressed to keep up 4.5 knots. Every time the bow hit a wave, it brought the boat to a (wet) stop.
*The boat was wet. It didn't have a dodger, and was a center-cockpit, so one might expect some water -- but this was much more than I would've expected.
*There was not a comfortable seat on the boat. The cockpit had very low coamings -- and if I recall correctly, the cockpit front was curved. As a result, the boat's living room (cockpit) was virtually unlivable -- neither my wife nor I could find a comfortable spot in it. The arch interfered with seating in the back half of the cockpit.

The second Hunter experience I wish to relate was several daysails on a Hunter 29.5. I cannot think of anything positive to say about this boat. While we didn't spend much time below, the cabin was, at best, spartan. It was wide open (which helped it feel less cramped), but could only accommodate a couple, really. There was very limited storage space. I know some people complain about teak being high maintenance, or dark, but this boat fit the description of "floating Chlorox bottle." Under sail, the boat would neither go upwind nor downwind. The swept spreaders required downwind tacking -- that might be a good strategy on a racing boat, but on a cruising boat, I find it a problem. The boat was tender -- the heel angle to weather was extraordinary and the loss of steering significant. The boat became overpowered easily in what I considered light winds (12-15kts).

Lastly, I have a third-hand comment. When I bought my Caliber 28 about 15 years ago, the surveyor had just done a Hunter 28 the day before. Almost every other comment he made was about how relatively poorly the Hunter 28 was constructed. He mentioned the oil-canning on the Hunter. He told me that the tabbing on the Caliber was how it should be -- that it was built like a 40' boat, whereas the Hunter was built like a toy and that some elements weren't tabbed/glassed and that others have relatively narrow tabbing.

Maybe these were three bad examples of Hunters. Maybe their other designs are better. I don't mean to take away one ounce of pleasure from those of you who enjoy your Hunters. But if asked to recommend a boat, I cannot, based on my experience, recommend one.
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Old 17-09-2014, 11:57   #99
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Re: Catalina or Hunter?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ontherocks83 View Post
Or did you just post with out knowing whats been said so far on the matter.
i have been to the factory and watched them being built but i guess that would not qualify with you
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Old 17-09-2014, 12:17   #100
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Re: Catalina or Hunter?

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Originally Posted by gonesail View Post
i have been to the factory and watched them being built but i guess that would not qualify with you
Could you please elaborate? When where what etc.. Also maybe if you had started with "hey I went to the factory and it was crap" we wouldn't be discussing all of this.

Maybe I am misunderstanding what you are talking about. I would be very curious to know what those short comings are. I am going off of their website and how the say they construct boats.

Catalina Closer Look

and

Catalina Closer Look

Maybe they are lieing, maybe you and I are talking about 2 different things. Maybe I'm just wrong, it wouldnt be the first time. I would like some more detail though over general references to their construction.

Thanks
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Old 17-09-2014, 12:21   #101
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Re: Catalina or Hunter?

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Originally Posted by a64pilot View Post
ontherocks,
I agree and think you have a good grasp of limitations and what is required.
Not everyone likes the looks of an older boat, most are sort of the teak cave look, and you just really can't change that, it's the way they are built.
Since I started sailing about 10 years ago, I befriended several boating buddies/salties. One is a boat builder from Europe with 40+ years of experience and another is a former merchant captain/engineer/world circumnavigator 2 or 3 times with unlimited tonnage commercial license (and in fact in his earlier years captained oil tankers, large cargo ships and even an icebreaker) and now lives aboard and is a manager of large urban sailing club with about 100 boats. Between the two of them I can get practically any information I need about any aspect of boat building, boat handling, boat maintenance, safety, smarts etc. We often go to the boat shows together and discuss the available products, boats, etc. Basically what they tell me is that there is no quality new boat out there for under $500K (35-45ft range) that either of them would feel safe and comfortable taking offshore around the world. And that practically every production boat today is built not for true sailing but for dockside cocktails, may be for some near shore chartering or coastal cruising. And even then there are very few which they don't classify as dogs. I don't want to list any of these "dogs" for obvious reasons but even in the $300-500K range they say there are very few boats which they would be comfortable sailing ofshore without a MAJOR refit and even then would be very cautious. The captain guy says that if one wants a newish quality boat at less than a Swan price one should go to New Zealand or Australia as they still build quality for much less than comparable US or Euro models. Although I personally think this advise is a bit stale as the US dollar rate makes Aussie dollar expensive but NZ is still affordable.
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Old 17-09-2014, 13:24   #102
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Re: Catalina or Hunter?

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Originally Posted by S/V Illusion View Post
I don't know why people continue to propagate these myths. Neither our H or C ever "oil canned".
No myth.

It's a fact that our Hunter flexed while underway and especially at anchor... also scared the poop out of our guests when the boat tossed them from side to side in the cockpit due to it's tender nature in moderate winds.

It's a fact that our keel came loose, I can show you the pictures of the repairs being done and the repair bill if you like.

It's a fact that the Hunter Marine company had deplorable customer service... it's been five years now, and I'm still waiting for a single return phone call. The new owners may have improved this problem, I don't know.

It's a fact that Hunter boats make excellent dockside condos... yes, I would buy one again for that intended purpose.

It's a fact, my wife loved the enormous shower.
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Old 17-09-2014, 14:27   #103
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Re: Catalina or Hunter?

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[...]Basically what they tell me is that there is no quality new boat out there for under $500K (35-45ft range) that either of them would feel safe and comfortable taking offshore around the world.
I generally don't find that new boats represent good value compared with used ones, but there are plenty of great new cruising boats in that size and price range. (Tartan 3700 and Sabre 386 are two that come to mind and I think both are around $300k -- leaving plenty of $ to outfit for a long cruise). What does an Outbound 44 go for?
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Old 17-09-2014, 14:42   #104
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Re: Catalina or Hunter?

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I generally don't find that new boats represent good value compared with used ones, but there are plenty of great new cruising boats in that size and price range. (Tartan 3700 and Sabre 386 are two that come to mind and I think both are around $300k -- leaving plenty of $ to outfit for a long cruise). What does an Outbound 44 go for?
Two or three years ago we actually looked at these, Tartan and Sabre at the local boat show. I don't recall all the details but I think they were OK but not great for the price. Also both of my firends ragged on Island Packet (but each for a different reason) saying that it's boats in 35-40 ft range were way overpriced for the quality of build and substanitally old designs that they offered. I remember one of them (the boatbuilder) being perplexed how on a $450K heavy 38 footer (IP) electric windlass was an option. Not to mention a very shallow anchor well. Not to mention untrimmed and untidy fiberglass strands in the lockers and lids. Things like that one does not expect on a half a mil 38 footer. Or should we now? This is not even "Honda at MB prices" its "an old Chevy at new Bentley prices".
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Old 17-09-2014, 14:42   #105
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Re: Catalina or Hunter?

Is there a such thing as a difference in build quality? Sure. A Caliber LRC, Oyster, etc. is made better than a Hunter, Catalina, B/Jenny. Does this equate to additional safety? Sometimes. But this is an extremely subjective and individual measure. Catastrophic failures at sea are extremely rare for all of the manufacturers. All most all of the things we spend time debating on this topic are outliers and not the norm. How many times do cruising boats really hit submerged objects at sea? How often does a little flex in the hull result in water gushing into the hull? How many times do rudders just fall off? How many boats are dismasted? These are all very rare events that get a lot of traffic on forums but aren't really that big of deal in the real world. Can you put a number on having watertight front bulk head that will lessen the changes of sinking should you encounter a one in a million event like hitting a partially submerged shipping container?

Weather you are in a Hunter or an Oyster, you will spend most of your time at anchor, on a ball or in a marina. Your time at sea will be a fraction compared to your time not moving. This is true of circumnavigators, day sailors and anyone in-between with probably the exception of racers. So do these fractional increases in safety margins really mean all that much in the big picture?

Does having a Caliber, Oyster, etc. mean you don't have to maintain your boat? HELL NO! It might mean that some of the maintenance is easier to perform or you might have to do some things less often but no matter how expensive the boat you still have to maintain it.

And this is the bottom line. Because when we do see boat catastrophes it is typically due to these issues. I pointed to that on the Cheeki Rafiki with the rust staining on the boats. And this was a response:

Quote:
Originally Posted by a64pilot View Post
Rust stains? I guess that excuses the manufacturer, nobody should ever sail a boat with rust stains?
No! You should not sail a boat with rust stains at critical areas like standing rigging, keel bolts, hull joint bolts, etc. Especially not offshore. This is a sign of a poorly maintained boat. And it doesn't matter who made the boat. Rusted rigging on an Oyster is just as much of a problem as rusted rigging on a Hunter.

Most of these boats were built for cruising. Ask the manufacturer to be sure. If they are maintained well they will perform fine. Other more expensive boats may perform better under sail but may be less comfortable to live on while your not sailing. You won't die simply because you take a production boat offshore. Plenty of people have already proven that.
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