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Old 17-09-2014, 05:45   #76
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Re: Catalina or Hunter?

I have a Islander 26. Only 16 were built before the company went under. Knowing what I know now..... I kinda wish I had waited and bought a "Cat" or "Hunter" just for the parts availability alone. Luckily for me, my boat is pretty solid in all the important areas.
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Old 17-09-2014, 06:04   #77
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Re: Catalina or Hunter?

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Originally Posted by BZT54 View Post
They all flex and oil can, why, because their interior liners are what strengthens their less than adequate hull lay-ups. Have you ever walked through a yard and seen some of these boats on jack stands? I like dimples on babies, not on a boat I intend to take to sea.
I'm throwing the BS Flag on this one. The Yard I am at is primarily made up of Hunters, Catalinas, Bene's and Jeaneaus. Being a lake there is not really any "high end" boats. Never seen this once. This is one of those statements you have to prove not just state.

Even more so 6 or 7 years ago in our 1983 Cat 30 we hit an unmarked rock while under full power and stopped the boat dead. I almost went flying down the companion way. When we got back to the slip we had the boat pulled and professionaly inspected. No hull cracking, no water ingress, no evidence of structual damage at all. Worst thing that happened was a big chunk taken out of the lead keel. And now years later there has been 0 problems or concerns found after the impact.

Sounds pretty strong in my book.
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Old 17-09-2014, 06:04   #78
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Re: Catalina or Hunter?

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Originally Posted by JK n Smitty View Post
Can you provide any facts that support that oil canning or hull flexing has caused structural failures on production boats?


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Seen the video of the Bene that broke up a couple of months ago, that was posted here?

I bought a Hunter 356, all that was left was the survey, mere formality as this boat was a gem. Beautiful boat, well maintained by a meticulous Engineer and very well equipped. On the Hunter site I was told to look for a "soft spot" in the hull just below the head, that on some of these models it was present and the "cure" was to cut the floor out of the shower and glass in a stringer, the stringer would push out the hull and make it stiff again.
Know what? It was there, there was a slightly concave spot two or three ft in diameter, and you could push the hull in there and it would flex a couple of inches. I know a boats hull is like an egg shell, a huge amount of the strength comes from the shape, but still you shouldn't be able to push it in a couple of inches with your thumb. I was prepared to fix that, wasn't happy but prepared.
But we found other structural issues that killed the deal
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Old 17-09-2014, 06:23   #79
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Re: Catalina or Hunter?

I think the hull and liner flex issues should matter to the OP if he's planning to live aboard, and not trying to round the cape. One of the most significant problems we had on our Hunter was the boat flexing, banging, popping, moaning and groaning while rocking and rolling at anchor. The side to side rocking was made worse by the high freeboard on the boat. In even a mild wave action, the boat sounded like it was coming apart and made everyone aboard extremely nervous. Just yesterday, my sister and brother in law were sill talking about the weekend spent on the Hunter 450 off Catalina island 5 years ago... how horrible it was. I didn't think it was that bad at the time, but it obviously made an impression on my wife and them.

This IS an issue that can only be fixed by getting a new boat. For weekenders and day sailors, it's a non issue. But for a live aboard who wants to get some sleep while anchored.... he should consider hull strength and flex.

On our present boat... and I'm not saying he needs to buy an Oyster, it's absolutely dead quiet down below.... even when the boat is underway or gently rocking at anchor. Other more heavily constructed boats I've been on are the same way. They instill the feeling of security down below.... not terror.
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Old 17-09-2014, 06:47   #80
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Re: Catalina or Hunter?

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Seen the video of the Bene that broke up a couple of months ago, that was posted here?
I assume you are referring to the Cheeki Rafiki? A hard raced charter boat with a questionable maintenance history. Not to mention, the boat didn't break up. From what is know the keel fell off and there were apparent rust stains at the keel bolts. Doesn't fit the discussion at all.
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Old 17-09-2014, 07:08   #81
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pirate Re: Catalina or Hunter?

Well... I've never sailed a Catalina however I have owned a Hunter Cherubini 37c which I took from NC to the UK solo.. also friends of bought a Hunter Legend 7yrs ago.. sailed to the Med then went back across and down to Brazil where they're still happily living aboard.. I be happy with either of these
The newer models minus backstay.. no experience..
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Old 17-09-2014, 07:10   #82
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Re: Catalina or Hunter?

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I think the hull and liner flex issues should matter to the OP if he's planning to live aboard, and not trying to round the cape. One of the most significant problems we had on our Hunter was the boat flexing, banging, popping, moaning and groaning while rocking and rolling at anchor. The side to side rocking was made worse by the high freeboard on the boat. In even a mild wave action, the boat sounded like it was coming apart and made everyone aboard extremely nervous. Just yesterday, my sister and brother in law were sill talking about the weekend spent on the Hunter 450 off Catalina island 5 years ago... how horrible it was. I didn't think it was that bad at the time, but it obviously made an impression on my wife and them.

This IS an issue that can only be fixed by getting a new boat. For weekenders and day sailors, it's a non issue. But for a live aboard who wants to get some sleep while anchored.... he should consider hull strength and flex.

On our present boat... and I'm not saying he needs to buy an Oyster, it's absolutely dead quiet down below.... even when the boat is underway or gently rocking at anchor. Other more heavily constructed boats I've been on are the same way. They instill the feeling of security down below.... not terror.
I will give you that an Oyster shouldn't creek, moan, etc. nearly as much or at all. But that's a big part of the difference of price. But that doesn't mean a Hunter is going to fall apart because it creeks and moans. I have been on boats of all build types that creek and moan. If you want to really hear some noise, go on a wooden hull or a fero-cement boat.

A lot of the noise factor could be eliminated by some custom improvements too. Find out where the noise is coming from and figure out how to fix it.

We live aboard a small Catalina (310) and the only times we have any noises that keep us awake is when we aren't tied off properly (dock, mooring or anchor), we have waves crashing on the wide stern or the winds get over 45 knots.

We absolutely do get rolly due to the high freeboard and flat bottom. But that can be fixed by the proper application of a swell bridle, anchor sail or flopper-stopper depending on the situation. The high freeboard and flat bottom is a double edged sword. It gives us more living space per foot of water line on good days and a less desirable motion on bad days. Like anything else on a boat, its a series of compromises. I will take the benefits of the high freeboard and flat bottom and learn the techniques for how to make it more comfortable on the bad days.

Would I circumnavigate on this boat? Nope. But I would on a Catalina 400 without a second thought. For coastal cruising the US east coast, the Bahamas and the Caribbean this boat is great. Small enough to be easily handled by one person but with enough living space for 2 people and a dog. Does it sail like a racer? Nope. But I typically average over 5.5-6 knots while cruising. I'll take that.
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Old 17-09-2014, 07:38   #83
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Ben, because the Moderators on Cruiser’s Forum run a tight ship you actually got off easy. On a website with no holds barred you would have been eaten alive with your “…brand itself matters little” statement because that’s an insult to everyone’s intelligence.

A thin skin has no place on a forum (or a boat for that matter). I think you as well as some others just blinked and are a little upset. You’ll get over it….

BZT
PS It looks like you got confused with my Honda/Mercedes comparison. Let me re-phrase that. A Hunter/Cat is to a Quality Boat as a Canary is to a Parrot. Canaries will last about 15 years. A Parrot usually outlives its owner.
Why "eat people alive" for an opinion? Have a fact and experience based, respectful discussion without demeaning comments. You were right about one aspect.....choose a forum where such behavior does not exist.
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Old 17-09-2014, 07:52   #84
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Re: Catalina or Hunter?

One thing for sure, there is no bad boats , mostly people buying the wrong boat for a diferent purpose .....
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Old 17-09-2014, 08:09   #85
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Re: Catalina or Hunter?

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Originally Posted by JK n Smitty View Post
I assume you are referring to the Cheeki Rafiki? A hard raced charter boat with a questionable maintenance history. Not to mention, the boat didn't break up. From what is know the keel fell off and there were apparent rust stains at the keel bolts. Doesn't fit the discussion at all.
No, not that one, but Cheeki Rafiki is a good example too. I don't remember the name of the boat I'm talking about, it had a rudder failure, rudder was replaced, then later in heavy weather in the North Atlantic, rudder broke loose and the boat broke up.
Rust stains? I guess that excuses the manufacturer, nobody should ever sail a boat with rust stains? What do you mean by questionable maintenance history, be specific please, or did you just hear that and are repeating it?

Now I'm sure this boat had previous damage, just as Cheeki Raffiki had previous hard use, but you just don't see many of the boats that have a rep for build quality breaking up and killing crews, do you, and many of those have questionable maintenance history and are rode hard.

I don't know about you, but I want a boat that will withstand more than I can ever throw at her, not one that will eventually fatigue and break, I do not want a "life limited" boat.

I'm also of the opinion that the newer Hunters just aren't the same quality boat as the older ones are, I do not know what years or models to avoid though.
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Old 17-09-2014, 08:13   #86
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Re: Catalina or Hunter?

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BZT,

Your posts are insulting, and demeaning, and therefore serve no real purpose. Now, regarding your analogy of Honda vs. Mercedes and considering the function of both, the safety of both, and the comfort of both: both will get you to and from work, both will transport your family to and fro, and both will keep you safe in an accident. The honda has a much better reliability score, and has much fewer repairs in comparison and therefore the enjoyment and use of the Honda will be greater. The Mercedes drives like a truck; uncomfortable ride.

To close the loop, I grew up in America, on the gulf coast of Florida not far from where you live, got my doctorate level education in Philadelphia, and cruise the Chesapeake as my home waters, and circumnavigate the BVI yearly all with my family of 5 and two dogs. We sail our hunter legend 37.5 all over, and she's great!

Ben


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I don't know why people continue to propagate these myths. Neither our H or C ever "oil canned".

My wife has a MB and I drive a Honda Accord. By FAR, her MB has had more problems, required more repairs and broken down more than my H which has been flawless. And I was born in the U.S.
So much for frivolous rationalizations. All such analogies proves is that many people are so easily influenced by misleading advertising.
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Old 17-09-2014, 08:32   #87
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Re: Catalina or Hunter?

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Why "eat people alive" for an opinion? Have a fact and experience based, respectful discussion without demeaning comments. You were right about one aspect.....choose a forum where such behavior does not exist.
+1


Quote:
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Ben, because the Moderators on Cruiser’s Forum run a tight ship you actually got off easy. On a website with no holds barred you would have been eaten alive with your “...
This made me laugh. You're cute when you get "threatening"

How about discuss the point instead of displaying copious amounts of machoism. Just sayin...
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Old 17-09-2014, 09:18   #88
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Re: Catalina or Hunter?

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Originally Posted by S/V Illusion View Post
I don't know why people continue to propagate these myths. Neither our H or C ever "oil canned".

My wife has a MB and I drive a Honda Accord. By FAR, her MB has had more problems, required more repairs and broken down more than my H which has been flawless. And I was born in the U.S.
So much for frivolous rationalizations. All such analogies proves is that many people are so easily influenced by misleading advertising.
Illusion, so you had a Hunter that didn’t flex or oil can? What a lucky guy. Too bad those who know don’t believe you.

FYI, we are not talking about Honda vs. Mercedes and trips down the block. We are taking about Davey Jones and the Deep Blue Sea, that applies whether you are going coastal or down island. Be careful, Murphy loves guys like you.


Btw, I agree, “All such analogies proves is that many people are so easily influenced by misleading advertising.”

You are of course referring to the Hunter marketing staff, right?

OP, more “frivolous rationalizations”…

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Old 17-09-2014, 09:37   #89
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Re: Catalina or Hunter?

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Illusion, so you had a Hunter that didn’t flex or oil can? What a lucky guy. Too bad those who know don’t believe you.
Calling me a liar is neither an appropriate nor a convincing response but rather a childish one. I have no reason or motive to state anything other than my observation based on experience. That you are so dismissive of both is telling!

Quote:
FYI, we are not talking about Honda vs. Mercedes and trips down the block. We are taking about Davey Jones and the Deep Blue Sea, that applies whether you are going coastal or down island. Be careful, Murphy loves guys like you.
You are the one who brought up the metaphor. I, along with others, merely dispelled it. Getting defensive doesn't convince anyone.

My parents and I sailed across the Pacific in one of these boats you claim can't do it safely. You "internet experts" must think
I am a ghost

Quote:
Btw, I agree, “All such analogies proves is that many people are so easily influenced by misleading advertising.”

You are of course referring to the Hunter marketing staff, right?
Wrong but don't let the reality confuse you.

If you want to have a mature and intelligent debate, bring it. Otherwise, you are coming across as a petulant child with your comments.
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Old 17-09-2014, 09:41   #90
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Re: Catalina or Hunter?

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No, not that one, but Cheeki Rafiki is a good example too. I don't remember the name of the boat I'm talking about, it had a rudder failure, rudder was replaced, then later in heavy weather in the North Atlantic, rudder broke loose and the boat broke up.
Rust stains? I guess that excuses the manufacturer, nobody should ever sail a boat with rust stains? What do you mean by questionable maintenance history, be specific please, or did you just hear that and are repeating it?

Now I'm sure this boat had previous damage, just as Cheeki Raffiki had previous hard use, but you just don't see many of the boats that have a rep for build quality breaking up and killing crews, do you, and many of those have questionable maintenance history and are rode hard.

I don't know about you, but I want a boat that will withstand more than I can ever throw at her, not one that will eventually fatigue and break, I do not want a "life limited" boat.

I'm also of the opinion that the newer Hunters just aren't the same quality boat as the older ones are, I do not know what years or models to avoid though.
I get and understand what you are saying but there has to be more to both of those situations then any of us know about.

As far as the one with the rudder that sank.

What I "know" / remember was that they had a collision and lost their rudder.
They were towed into a foreign country and waited a long time to get a new one.
They had the new one replaced and set out to sea some time later.
At some point the upper support for the rudder broke free allowing the rudder to pivot / oscillate creating a tremendous amount of force where it goes into the hull and broke the hull open allowing water in.

My assumption is that the initial collision was much harder then anyone realized and damaged the upper mounts to the rudder post. It probably was not properly inspected and there fore not properly repaired.

Had someone gone through and done an airplane worthy inspection after the collision it most likely would have been caught and repaired/beefed up preventing their sinking from happening.

Obviously there are differences between custom or semi custom boats and production boats. The biggest one is cost. With that extra cost comes comfort, beefing up certain areas, certain types of construction and so on.

The way I look at it in my opinion. I can't afford a custom and I don't like the style of older "stronger" boats.

I being vain, like a lot of the newer production boat designs. I would rather by a new/newer/newish production boat (specifically a catalina because i like the new ones but this is beside the point) and spend some money beefing it up i.e. installing backing plates under winches and cleats, installing the needed systems, inspecting possible failure points and having them reinforced if thought to be needed, and maybe even glassing in the transom foreward of the rudder post to make my own water proof compartment. Hence spend more money on the boat and less money on fixing it up.

What I wouldn't want is to spend less money on an older boat I dont like and then spend alot of money refitting it to make it back to seaworthy. Again I reference RH and his HC as one example, well ok my only example but you get where i am going.

Any boat can sink and even production boats can safely cross oceans and you can always throw more at a boat then it can handle.
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