Catalina or Hunter

[CruisingCouple]

Originally Posted by thomm225

Btw, thanks for the info on the Westerbeke. I'm still wondering why that Sabre hasn't sold but maybe it's because it's has only a little over 10' of beam.

I would not worry about the 10 foot beam at all. That will give the boat a nice comfortable motion. I do know one thing for sure though. If you don't buy that boat somebody else will.

Like boatman said that Westerbeke is just broken in. At 2500 hrs you can still see the crosshatch marks in the bores and the rings have just found "home" and quit turning in the ring lands in the position they'll run in for the next 15,000 hours. About all it needs at that point in its life is to pop the valve cover off and check the valve lash. That boat has a Model 27 in it - the 80 cube 4 cylinder. They are pretty good engines.

[thomm225]

Awesome info on the engine. Thanks guys..........

I wasn't too worried about the 10' 6" beam since my present boat is 8'. I was thinking many cruising couples used to or looking at 40' LOA and 12' + beams maybe wouldn't want a boat like that.

To me it's perfect and has a relatively new 2009 battened main. After literally looking at 1000's of boats this thread has definitely helped. Thanks H20.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by CruisingCouple

If a full keel is needed the old Bristols are good. I saw somebody run one of those into the rocks once with the old Westerbeke running at full throttle and it didn't hurt it. But the same boat had a problem with the mast step. It has a deck stepped mast and no real compression post going to the keel. They kind of rely on the bulkhead between the v-berth and the corner to the head to support the deck. The deck had settled with age to where the door to the v-berth had a 1" gap on one side and it rubbed on the other.

Speaking of that, my boat has a bit of a depression on the cabin top just to the starboard side of the mast and forward a couple inches passed that bulkhead. There's no change inside and it's all extremely solid. (but the door to the V-berth was removed before I bought the boat) Not sure what may have caused it unless it was when I tightened up the shrouds a couple years back. 450 on the loos gauge all around except 550-575 and the forward lowers. I couldn't help putting in a little mast prebend.

I wonder if this was too much for an old boat. Sometimes on our catamarans we'd crank in 750 plus on heavy wind days on the diamonds for max mast prebend.

[Kenomac]

Unless you plan on doing lot's of work and spending loads of money, generally speaking.... buying a newer boat is better. I just wanted to say this, because I saw many postings recommending older boats.

Even on a 10 year old boat, plan on spending at least 10-15% of the purchase price on repairs and re-fit post purchase. On an older boat, triple that figure.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

Unless you plan on doing lot's of work and spending loads of money, generally speaking.... buying a newer boat is better. I just wanted to say this, because I saw many postings recommending older boats.

Even on a 10 year old boat, plan on spending at least 10-15% of the purchase price on repairs and re-fit post purchase. On an older boat, triple that figure.

I was thinking h20 was maybe younger with not a lot of sailing experience.

My boat was $2,000 (okay, so I have $8,000 in it now but still chump change generally speaking) and it has been a good teacher to me even though I already have 15 years sailing experience (racing catamarans). It's tough, can handle rough seas, and will get you home on autopilot if you are blowing chunks at first trying to get used to the motion.

The old $2,000 Bristol doing what it does:

003 - YouTube

and a nicer day:

003 - YouTube

[thomm225]

Lots of fun, cheap training, and some nice scenery all for a little over $2,000.

[h20]

But, H20, if you do buy an older boat make sure all the hoses attached to thru hulls are good. (or the seacocks are closed) If they seem old or brittle, replace them. This includes the hoses on the stuffing box for the prop and the rudder which some boats have.[/QUOTE]

Thanks Thomm,
Very gratefull to get information. Sometimes I think of re sale value, becuase of the CAR mistakes I have had. Mercedes, Honda, had good resale.
Rebuilt a Hyndia, had 15k in it and can't sell it for 4k!
From what most siad, the Catalinas have the best re sale.
Do you think they have a good rudder or one can be put on?
My power boating is just very simple, 2ft water no problem.
And maybe only a 32 or 34 in case have to sail it myself.
Going to Clearwater Sailing school next week!
Dan, Big Island Hawaii, Pensacola, Punta Gorda, Port Richey

[CruisingCouple]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

Even on a 10 year old boat, plan on spending at least 10-15% of the purchase price on repairs and re-fit post purchase. On an older boat, triple that figure.

I would say that's a pretty good estimation. We spent $48K on our boat and I have $15K in new parts either in boxes in my shop or on order that are going in her in the next 4 months during her refit.

But for $63-65K I feel she will be in better shape than the 10-15 year old boats that we looked at in the $100K+ price range. The advantage for us in buying an older boat is that we were able to pay cash for the boat and in refitting her. We would have have to finance a more expensive boat.

We are leaving in 2015, sailing our boat down the river system to the gulf. Once she reaches salt water we have no intentions of sailing her back home. We will find a nice marina with a secured yard, have her hauled out and stored on the hard, and fly home to take care of our business. Then the next winter fly back, splash her and continue cruising. If we bought a more expensive boat our finances would be tighter and the payments would cut into our cruising money - probably causing us to have to work for another 5 years before we would be able to go cruising. Doing it the way we are doing it doesn't even attempt to stretch our finances and that makes the whole experience much more enjoyable (at least for us).

[h20]

Originally Posted by JK n Smitty

Since someone brought up Atom Voyages, I would suggest any interesting in a Catalina read this article; Atom Voyages - Delivering a Catalina 320 to the Virgin Islands

And this is what he had to say on spade rudders:

Good read, thnajks a bunch!

[h20]

Originally Posted by JK n Smitty

Just because something is "conventional wisdom", doesn't always mean its true. Do you own research on the full keel "protected" rudder issue. More modern boats, even "blue water" boats, are going with fin keels (or a wing version of a fin) with spade rudders. Find me a skeg hung rudder or full keel on a new Tartan.

By the way, take a look at the global racing boats like those used in the Volvo or other races. They don't have skeg hung rudders or full keels and are going through conditions that are typically far worse then any cruiser would see.

There are many people who consider the spade rudder better than the skeg or keel hung rudder. First, the spade rudder is far more efficient and therefore requires less torque and simpler steering mechanism. Second, there is far less stress placed on the spade rudder by water from lift forces because it is away from the keel and clear of the turbulent water generated. Third, the protection offered by the skeg or back portion of the keel is overrated because most debris would be cleared away from the rudder by the leading edge of the keel and not come in contact with the rudder area. Finally, a well designed spade rudder won't cause structural damage when it is struck by an object or hits a rock and the bottom portion is considered "sacrificial". A skeg hung or keel hung rudder that takes a major hit could suffer major damage that would have required a haul-out or could structurally damaged the hull or create a leak that sinks the boat. With a spade, the rudder may shear off but the boat would remain afloat and you could then work out a repair or emergency rudder or steer by dragging lines, etc.

As with many things on boats, gear/design will get a bad reputation based on incomplete stories. Most of the time when there is a failure of a spade rudder it is due to lack of maintenance. If you are not inspecting and maintaining any boat equipment properly, the equipment isn't to blame, the sailor is.

Grasping the difference now. Can you have a beefed up spade rudder? Or it does not matter? or constuction won't allow it? can't get the best of both worlds? Thanks, hey maybe start a new thread, best rudders! I don't like
" fly by wire airplanes"

[thomm225]

Another thing to keep in mind is that many people buy nice, expensive boats and then rarely sail them. That's another reason I went old and cheap to see if I'd actually use the thing.

Ends up I use it a lot but it goes nowhere fast as compared to being able to cover 20 miles in less than 2 hours on my catamarans in the past on a good day or completing a 100 mile " Round the Island " race in 12 hours.

At least though on these monohulls you can be comfortable

[CruisingCouple]

Originally Posted by h20

Grasping the difference now. Can you have a beefed up spade rudder? Or it does not matter?

h20 - it is my opinion (which probably doesn't mean much) that this is not something to get overly worried about. Either type can be damaged and the spade rudder is probably easier to fix. If you're going to run her aground or hit something, something has to give. A hollow tube shaft that bends vs a skeg hung that jams vs a solid shaft that shears and/or tears the gudgeons off is probably a mute point.

I've seen this time and time again in heavy equipment where things that break are massive, weighing several tons. You can beef it up all you want and something upstream of it at an attachment point will break instead.

Not a single boat you can buy is the "perfect" solution. Congrats on taking your sailing school - you'll learn a lot. One the most important things you'll learn is that it is the sailor and not the boat. After you get done with your school pick the boat you can afford and that you like. And have a survey done on it if you're not experienced with boats so there's no surprises. And do not accept a survey provided by a yacht broker - get an independent one done.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by JK n Smitty

Are those rudders falling off or failing because of lack of maintenance or a design flaw?

And not to be a dick, but prove it. Give me a link that supports this statement.

Well, a quick search on google gave me two rudder problems right off the bat both of course were spade rudders:

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ea-114018.html

Rudder lost at sea and rescue - Page 4 - SailNet Community

then there's this. Rudder failure on both a Catalina and a Hunter:

Rudder failure – how safe is yours?

Rudder failure represents a serious emergency. Towards the end of last year, the Jubilee Trust’s magnificent three-masted barque, SV Tenacious, on passage from the Canaries to Antigua, responded to an alert from the Maritime Rescue Coordination Centre in Martinique. A French yacht called Zouk – a 43ft Jeanneau Sun Odyssey belonging to the Glenans Sailing School – had lost its rudder and has been adrift for nearly a week. Attempts were made to tow the stricken yacht but to no avail. Her crew were taken off and Zouk was scuttled so she would pose no threat to other mariners.
An isolated mishap? Not really. Rudder failure raised its embarrassing head again. In the Atlantic Rally for Cruisers (ARC) of 2002, a Hunter Legend 450, known as F2, met a similar fate and, after initial support from three other entrant yachts, reinforcements arrived in the shape of … would you credit it … Tenacious! Taking advantage of their saviour’s comprehensive workshop, a jury rudder was fitted and F2 was on her way.
Onwards to the ARC of 2006 and the story quickens. This time Y Not, a Contest 48 and Arnolf, a Bavaria 35, both found themselves rudderless. Y Not made it safely to St Lucia but unfortunately Arnolf proved unmanageable and was abandoned.
In the course of my research for this article, I heard of other rudder failures, including a Catalina 42, J44, Wylie 38, Hunter (Legend) 466, and a quartet of Cal 39s. I have personal knowledge of an Excalibur 36 (I built its replacement rudder), a Rival 38, a Dehler 34, a couple of Trident 24s, various Westerlies and some earlier Moodys. When you think of how many boats there are out there, this is hardly a mechanical epidemic, but considering how important rudders are in the general scheme of things it’s certainly a cause for concern. Most were spade rudders, and the most common failures saw stocks breaking where they emerged from the hulls – always areas of highest stress concentration. It’s this type we’re mainly concerned with here.
So, what were the causes? In most cases we’ll never know. It’s surprising how many skippers claim they hit something. ‘There was a hell of a bang,’ one once told me. ‘Whatever it was felt really solid.’
‘Just one bang?’ I queried. ‘Surely it would have hit the keel first.’
Of course, this sort of conjecture is very circumstantial. Boats do hit submerged objects, suffering consequent damage, but it may be simply that the rudder flailed about as it came adrift, banging up under the hull in the process. It seems to me that so dramatic is the transition from business as usual to ‘Houston we have a problem’ that in the absence on an indignant whale or a tree trunk in the wake, we may never identify the cause.
To question precisely how such an event occurred might seem like nit-picking – after all, the rudder vanished, one way or another. But it’s really very important. No one can fashion a rudder that will take extreme and unnatural punishment but, if it gives up the ghost in normal service, we have something more worrying to brood on. For what we are then talking about is structural inadequacy from the outset.

Damn that little rudder on the Bristol sure looks to be in a good spot:

http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=521

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by JK n Smitty

True, but by sails only isn't the only way to steer a boat with no rudder. You can drag a drogue, fashion an emergency rudder, etc. This also doesn't account for the types of rudder damage a full keel boat with an attached rudder can have. What if the rudder is jammed hard over and you can't get it out? You can address that easier with a spade rudder.

The sails will easily overpower the small rudder on most full keel boats. it's mostly just a trim tab anyway the sails providing most of the steering force.

Also, I can't see too many ways that one of those rudders can jam to one side due to it's protection, and it's direct hookup to the tiller.

[h20]

Originally Posted by thomm225

Awesome info on the engine. Thanks guys..........

I wasn't too worried about the 10' 6" beam since my present boat is 8'. I was thinking many cruising couples used to or looking at 40' LOA and 12' + beams maybe wouldn't want a boat like that.

To me it's perfect and has a relatively new 2009 battened main. After literally looking at 1000's of boats this thread has definitely helped. Thanks H20.

thank you, um could not find the "engine info"
what where why?