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Old 22-12-2013, 09:09   #91
h20
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Re: Catalina or Hunter

""""""" And do not accept a survey provided by a yacht broker """""""""
I thought about that. Maybe a way to check for conflict of intrist?
It's like the apraisor friends the the realty broker!
cheers! Your wife like sailing? trying to get mine interested.........
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Old 22-12-2013, 09:30   #92
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Re: Catalina or Hunter

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Originally Posted by thomm225 View Post
Well, a quick search on google gave me two rudder problems right off the bat both of course were spade rudders:

Rudder nightmare at sea

Rudder lost at sea and rescue - Page 4 - SailNet Community

then there's this. Rudder failure on both a Catalina and a Hunter:

Rudder failure – how safe is yours?

Rudder failure represents a serious emergency. Towards the end of last year, the Jubilee Trust’s magnificent three-masted barque, SV Tenacious, on passage from the Canaries to Antigua, responded to an alert from the Maritime Rescue Coordination Centre in Martinique. A French yacht called Zouk – a 43ft Jeanneau Sun Odyssey belonging to the Glenans Sailing School – had lost its rudder and has been adrift for nearly a week. Attempts were made to tow the stricken yacht but to no avail. Her crew were taken off and Zouk was scuttled so she would pose no threat to other mariners.
An isolated mishap? Not really. Rudder failure raised its embarrassing head again. In the Atlantic Rally for Cruisers (ARC) of 2002, a Hunter Legend 450, known as F2, met a similar fate and, after initial support from three other entrant yachts, reinforcements arrived in the shape of … would you credit it … Tenacious! Taking advantage of their saviour’s comprehensive workshop, a jury rudder was fitted and F2 was on her way.
Onwards to the ARC of 2006 and the story quickens. This time Y Not, a Contest 48 and Arnolf, a Bavaria 35, both found themselves rudderless. Y Not made it safely to St Lucia but unfortunately Arnolf proved unmanageable and was abandoned.
In the course of my research for this article, I heard of other rudder failures, including a Catalina 42, J44, Wylie 38, Hunter (Legend) 466, and a quartet of Cal 39s. I have personal knowledge of an Excalibur 36 (I built its replacement rudder), a Rival 38, a Dehler 34, a couple of Trident 24s, various Westerlies and some earlier Moodys. When you think of how many boats there are out there, this is hardly a mechanical epidemic, but considering how important rudders are in the general scheme of things it’s certainly a cause for concern. Most were spade rudders, and the most common failures saw stocks breaking where they emerged from the hulls – always areas of highest stress concentration. It’s this type we’re mainly concerned with here.
So, what were the causes? In most cases we’ll never know. It’s surprising how many skippers claim they hit something. ‘There was a hell of a bang,’ one once told me. ‘Whatever it was felt really solid.’
‘Just one bang?’ I queried. ‘Surely it would have hit the keel first.’
Of course, this sort of conjecture is very circumstantial. Boats do hit submerged objects, suffering consequent damage, but it may be simply that the rudder flailed about as it came adrift, banging up under the hull in the process. It seems to me that so dramatic is the transition from business as usual to ‘Houston we have a problem’ that in the absence on an indignant whale or a tree trunk in the wake, we may never identify the cause.
To question precisely how such an event occurred might seem like nit-picking – after all, the rudder vanished, one way or another. But it’s really very important. No one can fashion a rudder that will take extreme and unnatural punishment but, if it gives up the ghost in normal service, we have something more worrying to brood on. For what we are then talking about is structural inadequacy from the outset.

Damn that little rudder on the Bristol sure looks to be in a good spot:

BRISTOL 27 sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com
Holy crap!
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Old 22-12-2013, 10:01   #93
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Re: Catalina or Hunter

Dear Thomm225,
what sail boats have a Skeg hung rudder?
Thanks a bunch. Found this:
Spade Rudders vs. Skeg Hung - SailNet Community
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Old 22-12-2013, 10:33   #94
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Re: Catalina or Hunter

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thank you, um could not find the "engine info"
what where why?
Well, after looking at 1000's of boats, I didn't know that a 27 hp Westerbeke with 2500 hrs on it was comparable to a 1993-2004 Jeep Grand Cherokee 4 Liter, 242 cubic inch I-6 Engine with 100,000 miles on it.

It's barely broken in! The fellas above explained it...........
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Old 22-12-2013, 10:41   #95
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Re: Catalina or Hunter

Just thought I'd mention that here in Placencia out of 13 boats 4 are Hunters (2 37s, a 34 and us on a 42), there's a steel hull 40 footer, 2 smaller boats - don't know the type and the rest are cats.
The 2 37s came from Canada, the 34 is here from the Bahamas and we're on our 2nd year in the NW Caribbean but originally from New Orleans.

All the Hunters look fine. We're 1992 built the others are 80's models.

Don't know what any of that means other than we all like our boats but not too snooty about it. We're having a Hunter owner potluck this afternoon but have invited all the others even though they aren't Hunters.

Oh, AND (please, please) Geaux Saints!!
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Old 22-12-2013, 12:09   #96
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Re: Catalina or Hunter

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Originally Posted by thomm225 View Post
Well, after looking at 1000's of boats, I didn't know that a 27 hp Westerbeke with 2500 hrs on it was comparable to a 1993-2004 Jeep Grand Cherokee 4 Liter, 242 cubic inch I-6 Engine with 100,000 miles on it.
thomm225, it's hard to compare marine engines to automotive engines because on the automotive side the engine tends to get subjected to a lot of thermal cycling and runs at less than ideal load and speed. We have an old Westerbeke 4 cylinder on a 4" pump that we use to pump out and keep big construction sites dry where the hole is excavated below the water table. When it had 22,000 hours on it I figured I should overhaul it so I tore it down. There was nothing in the bottom end that needed overhauling, but the head and valve seats were in pretty bad shape. We cut counterbores in the head and put new hardened valve seats in it, new guides and new valves, and ringed and bearing'd it anyway.

Over the years I put a couple sets of injection pumps in it (the pumps are individual and go into cast bores in the block and are operated by a cam), blew a couple injector tips, the governor got so wore out it would surge unless it had a good load on it pushing 150 of head, so put a new governor in it. And rebuilt the pump itself about 2 dozen times due to the impeller getting worn by sand. But otherwise it is almost impossible to break the thing. Everything else on the site can go to hell in a handbasket but we can always rely on that pump.

So I mean it's like, 2500 hours? That ain't nuthin for one of those.
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Old 22-12-2013, 12:33   #97
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Re: Catalina or Hunter

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Originally Posted by thomm225 View Post
Well, after looking at 1000's of boats, I didn't know that a 27 hp Westerbeke with 2500 hrs on it was comparable to a 1993-2004 Jeep Grand Cherokee 4 Liter, 242 cubic inch I-6 Engine with 100,000 miles on it.

It's barely broken in! The fellas above explained it...........
WAS thinking with all the spade rudder failers, why don't they have an extra
spade rudder on board? Or smoe kind of back up rudder?
By the way, THE OLD Grand Jeep Wagoneers we had to trade them in at 60K.
That was when American Motors went bankrupt..........
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Old 22-12-2013, 13:41   #98
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Re: Catalina or Hunter

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Originally Posted by h20 View Post
WAS thinking with all the spade rudder failers, why don't they have an extra
spade rudder on board? Or smoe kind of back up rudder?
Calm down and look at what has actually been provided.

A total of 16 different types of boats that have had rudder issues. Most of these had spade rudders. There is no information relative to cause. There are 1000s of types of boats and many different types of rudders and just as many types of rudder failures.

The main post was an article questioning if there was a structural cause to these failures but there was no evidence presented and no causation discussed. Just a question raised. It does raise an interesting question it that most people with rudder failures only report one bang and blame the rudder failure on hitting something.

Also, look at the responses by those who suffered rudder failure. Several tried to use the sails to steer and then bailed on the boat when that failed. Doesn't sound like the response of experienced sailors. If they don't know how to respond to a situation like this, makes me question if they know how to do the maintenance that may have prevented it. There are people who carrier extra rudders. There are also several different ways to address this without a rudder. Most effective IMO is to carrier a small drift sock/drogue that you can use to steer by dragging.

Here is a much more balanced article. It talks about the different types of rudder failures and what can be done to prevent it. There are failures to all types of rudders.

Search the internet. Other than anecdotal stories like those posted, you can't find any information that would support the statement that spade rudder fail more then other rudders.

IMO, rudder type does not make that big a difference in choosing a boat. They all have their pluses and their minuses. Its about balancing that on whole with the boat. I sail a Catalina and have never give the rudder type a second thought. I do think about the rudder when it comes to maintenance. I would feel the same way if I sailed a Pacific Seacraft or a Island Packet.

Good luck finding a boat and fair winds,

Jesse
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Old 23-12-2013, 05:19   #99
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Re: Catalina or Hunter

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Originally Posted by JK n Smitty View Post
Calm down and look at what has actually been provided.

A total of 16 different types of boats that have had rudder issues. Most of these had spade rudders. There is no information relative to cause. There are 1000s of types of boats and many different types of rudders and just as many types of rudder failures.

The main post was an article questioning if there was a structural cause to these failures but there was no evidence presented and no causation discussed. Just a question raised. It does raise an interesting question it that most people with rudder failures only report one bang and blame the rudder failure on hitting something.

Also, look at the responses by those who suffered rudder failure. Several tried to use the sails to steer and then bailed on the boat when that failed. Doesn't sound like the response of experienced sailors. If they don't know how to respond to a situation like this, makes me question if they know how to do the maintenance that may have prevented it. There are people who carrier extra rudders. There are also several different ways to address this without a rudder. Most effective IMO is to carrier a small drift sock/drogue that you can use to steer by dragging.

Here is a much more balanced article. It talks about the different types of rudder failures and what can be done to prevent it. There are failures to all types of rudders.

Search the internet. Other than anecdotal stories like those posted, you can't find any information that would support the statement that spade rudder fail more then other rudders.

IMO, rudder type does not make that big a difference in choosing a boat. They all have their pluses and their minuses. Its about balancing that on whole with the boat. I sail a Catalina and have never give the rudder type a second thought. I do think about the rudder when it comes to maintenance. I would feel the same way if I sailed a Pacific Seacraft or a Island Packet.

Good luck finding a boat and fair winds,

Jesse
Another thing that is common on the old forum is that some folks will defend a certain type of boat at all costs if they happen to own one of that type.

I have always liked the Catalina 30 and 34 . The Hunters are fast but not built for offshore. Catalinas have sailed everywhere. There are a ton of them out there.

There was a guy on a newer Hunter 30 something heading out yesterday and we had gusts to 28. He was probably going to run along the coats since the wind was southerly. He was flying coming out the creek with just the jib up.

Today with the good communications gear we have and up to date weather reports, you can probably get where you want to go on either of these boats. Dry Tortugas, Cuba where ever.

There's a whole family that took off with zero experience a year or so back and just now had a bad experience where the wife said they almost died. Check it out. really good blog and they are still going since they survived and have now geared up for the next storm:

Scroll down a bit for the bad weather:

The Life Nomadik | Chronicle of a Lunatic VoyageThe Life Nomadik | Chronicle of a Lunatic Voyage

Original Thread on CF:

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...est-93441.html
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Old 23-12-2013, 05:26   #100
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Re: Catalina or Hunter

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Originally Posted by CruisingCouple View Post
thomm225, it's hard to compare marine engines to automotive engines because on the automotive side the engine tends to get subjected to a lot of thermal cycling and runs at less than ideal load and speed. We have an old Westerbeke 4 cylinder on a 4" pump that we use to pump out and keep big construction sites dry where the hole is excavated below the water table. When it had 22,000 hours on it I figured I should overhaul it so I tore it down. There was nothing in the bottom end that needed overhauling, but the head and valve seats were in pretty bad shape. We cut counterbores in the head and put new hardened valve seats in it, new guides and new valves, and ringed and bearing'd it anyway.

Over the years I put a couple sets of injection pumps in it (the pumps are individual and go into cast bores in the block and are operated by a cam), blew a couple injector tips, the governor got so wore out it would surge unless it had a good load on it pushing 150 of head, so put a new governor in it. And rebuilt the pump itself about 2 dozen times due to the impeller getting worn by sand. But otherwise it is almost impossible to break the thing. Everything else on the site can go to hell in a handbasket but we can always rely on that pump.

So I mean it's like, 2500 hours? That ain't nuthin for one of those.
Nice, I'll remember that.

My experience is only with autos though. We had a 1991 Jeep Cherokee with the I-6, 242cu, 4 liter that went 335,000 and the last 200,000 were put on by a 16/17 year old. Now that's pretty tough.

Since I've had several more all easily going 200,000 plus. I've heard stories of 400,000 plus and one guy at a dealer said why do you think they stopped making that engine. We cannot make money with cars going 400,000 miles!
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Old 23-12-2013, 08:16   #101
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Re: Catalina or Hunter

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IMO, rudder type does not make that big a difference in choosing a boat. They all have their pluses and their minuses.
The rudder is not something I've ever been overly worried about either. Our Hunter 22 had a rudder failure once. It has a folding rudder with a cotter ring to which a line is attached that goes thru a block to a cam cleat by the tiller attachment. That line is what holds or locks the rudder down. The cotter ring broke so the rudder just sort of folded up behind the boat and provided almost no steerage.

We started up our spare rudder and lowered it into the water - our Evinrude Yachtwin. There is some advantages to having an outboard instead of inboard power

If push came to shove, with the tiller rudder mounted on gudgeons on the stern, we could've lifted it off the stern into the cockpit and fixed it. There's advantages to having a stern mounted rudder with tiller steering too

Our little Hunter 22 would go about 5.7 kts. If I really paid attention to sail trim might get it up 6. But the Hunters tend to be a little more tender than Catalinas for boats of the same size class from what I've seen. Even though our old boat was ballasted pretty heavy (something like 47% of displacement) all the ballast was in the cabin sole and the swing keel only weighed like 65 lbs. It would pick up a little speed heeled at about 15 degrees or so. But more than that it would slow down. I think the Catalinas can typically carry a bit more sail than the Hunters can without having that issue? That might be anecdotal, I don't know. But I know our old Hunter 22 had a hard time keeping up to a Catalina 22.
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Old 23-12-2013, 08:48   #102
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Re: Catalina or Hunter

it's all good. hey thanks for get'en my rudders down.
Now have to find a surveyor boat and a dock in the Keys!
Seems to be slow process but hey will be worth it!
thanks ALL! gratefull
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Old 23-12-2013, 09:10   #103
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Re: Catalina or Hunter

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it's all good. hey thanks for get'en my rudders down.
Now have to find a surveyor boat and a dock in the Keys!
Seems to be slow process but hey will be worth it!
thanks ALL! gratefull
h20 - I know you'll have loads of fun with it! The thing is, used sailboats <$10K aren't THAT hard to sell if you get one then decide later that you'd like something different. So my advice is don't agonize over it too hard - just pick one that you and your wife like and that's in decent shape. And figure on putting a little into it. I've met a lot of people who have just as much fun with their economy boats as other people do with their luxury cruisers.

Happy holidays to you guys down there!
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Old 23-12-2013, 09:18   #104
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Re: Catalina or Hunter

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Your wife like sailing? trying to get mine interested.........
h20 - I just saw this. My wife LOVES to sail. She's the captain. With her onboard I have never needed an autopilot because she has to be driving the boat. One of her favorite things is to see just how high she can get it to point and if she can get the tail on the windex inside the flags and the boat still goes her day is made
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Old 23-12-2013, 09:32   #105
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Re: Catalina or Hunter

We looked for a while at Catalinas and Hunters, and finally decided on the Catalina in 2010 and love the boat. The beaminess of the boat is perfect width for us with 2 big dogs. The c34.org website has tons of ideas and detailed redesigns for the boat.

Ours is an ideal cruising boat for us with lots of storage (but slow in races) and a winged keel (4') which is needed along the GIWW and Texas bays.

A detailed survey is essential but we still find things to fix and upgrade: wiring, autohelm, waterlines, pumps, refrigeration, hotwater tank fix, new vent with through hole for holding tank, etc. Vberth has huge place under bed for storage or larger fresh water tank.
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