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Old 19-12-2013, 13:17   #46
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Re: Catalina or Hunter

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Originally Posted by JK n Smitty View Post
Just because something is "conventional wisdom", doesn't always mean its true. Do you own research on the full keel "protected" rudder issue. More modern boats, even "blue water" boats, are going with fin keels (or a wing version of a fin) with spade rudders. Find me a skeg hung rudder or full keel on a new Tartan.

By the way, take a look at the global racing boats like those used in the Volvo or other races. They don't have skeg hung rudders or full keels and are going through conditions that are typically far worse then any cruiser would see.

There are many people who consider the spade rudder better than the skeg or keel hung rudder. First, the spade rudder is far more efficient and therefore requires less torque and simpler steering mechanism. Second, there is far less stress placed on the spade rudder by water from lift forces because it is away from the keel and clear of the turbulent water generated. Third, the protection offered by the skeg or back portion of the keel is overrated because most debris would be cleared away from the rudder by the leading edge of the keel and not come in contact with the rudder area. Finally, a well designed spade rudder won't cause structural damage when it is struck by an object or hits a rock and the bottom portion is considered "sacrificial". A skeg hung or keel hung rudder that takes a major hit could suffer major damage that would have required a haul-out or could structurally damaged the hull or create a leak that sinks the boat. With a spade, the rudder may shear off but the boat would remain afloat and you could then work out a repair or emergency rudder or steer by dragging lines, etc.

As with many things on boats, gear/design will get a bad reputation based on incomplete stories. Most of the time when there is a failure of a spade rudder it is due to lack of maintenance. If you are not inspecting and maintaining any boat equipment properly, the equipment isn't to blame, the sailor is.

Fine and dandy, Im a liveaboard and a cruiser who often ventures up rivers and into poorly charted inland areas. A knot or two doesnt mean a hill of beans to me but being stranded somewhere does. If I hit a rock or something on the bottom i stop, back up and turn around. My rudder is not sacrificial its essential and to this day Ive never been rescued or towed in my 30 years of sailing. This includes when I lost my rudder twice on my first boat.

My rudder is on a 2" solid stainless shaft with large stainless steel support on the bottom totalling 1"x4". I have ran into rocks going full speed under power. The only way I could see to damage the rudder is to back into something at speed . The boats rudder has been in service since 1976. I saw a catalina with a spindly 2" thinwall tube that was on its 3rd rudder in a decade. Tell me some more about the benefits of a skeg hung rudder, im not buying.
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Old 19-12-2013, 13:49   #47
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Re: Catalina or Hunter

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1000s of boats and you can only come up with those 2?
well, just saw these were popular and could get parts, there was about
23 or so really liked, some even sold from under me. maybe five other brands that are pretty good that would consider.....
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Old 19-12-2013, 13:55   #48
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Lol so we went from which of the 2 boats to rudders falling off. Any one know what the record for getting off track is. This didn't take long.
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Old 19-12-2013, 13:57   #49
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Re: Catalina or Hunter

My .02 take it for what it's worth. I've bought a few boats in my time and never had a survey done. Always thought I was smart enough.. I was WAY wrong. My current boat bit me in the you know what. Still love the boat, but I was too blind and had buyer's fever. Slow down, find the one you like AND get a survey. If it checks out perfect, the 300-500 you pay for the survey will be MORE than worth the piece of mind. If it doesn't check out, let me tell you it will be the best investment you ever make.

Hope it makes sense and helps someone out there...

Good luck with your search and happy boating
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Old 19-12-2013, 13:57   #50
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Re: Catalina or Hunter

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Now your in 2 completely different styles lol. Are you planning on reselling it soon if not I wouldn't look at that so much. Speaking of noise I was in New IP and that creeked a ton.
well i have to learn those styles, can you explain? thats why i am here, i am stupid about sail boats, (so far)
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Old 19-12-2013, 14:04   #51
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pirate Re: Catalina or Hunter

Sailed most types out there... each have their + & -'s... but to me its not what it is that matters... its whether it grabs me by the Nutz... and that's been from 21ft to 37ft...
Full.. Skeg.. Spade.. Transom and Cats.. its a boat and they are all vulnerable... the rest is hair splitting..
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Old 19-12-2013, 14:10   #52
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Re: Catalina or Hunter

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Originally Posted by scuba0_1 View Post
Lol so we went from which of the 2 boats to rudders falling off. Any one know what the record for getting off track is. This didn't take long.
yes, but for newbe, i like the rudder thing and the 2" stainless,
i just don't know what the hlle they look like, HA!
will now go have to finds pics of both!
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Old 19-12-2013, 15:12   #53
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Re: Catalina or Hunter

I would say to get the boat that strikes your fancy and just go sail it and have fun. Quit worrying about all these "fine details" about whether or not the rudder is going to fall off. If the rudder falls off it's all part of the fun of sailing, and gives you a chance to practice some new skills on how to sail the boat without it

If you're looking for the "perfect boat" there is no such thing. They all got problems.

Getting that jib to the other side is pretty easy BTW - the wind will blow it through the foretriangle. Just remember to ease the jib sheet on one side and pull on the lazy sheet or you might end up heaved-to by accident
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Old 19-12-2013, 16:33   #54
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Re: Catalina or Hunter

Yes, go aboard each one but also look at their reputation. Sail each one if you can and get an experienced skipper to take you out and point out the good and the bad while it sails.
Some boats look great on paper and at the dock but if they won't tack or track or go to weather worth a darn then you'll not like them once you start sailing. Try to listen to what people are telling you and sort out the bull from the good stuff.
kind regards,
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Old 19-12-2013, 17:05   #55
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Re: Catalina or Hunter

Check out the Atom Voyages website. Lots of your questions can be answered there. And btw, most of the boats on his list will save you should you get yourself in trouble offshore.

Atom Voyages - Good Old Boats List

And another good site is :

http://www.mahina.com/cruise.html

hum, I'm not seeing too many Hunters or Catalinas listed. Must be a mistake on their part.
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Old 19-12-2013, 17:18   #56
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Re: Catalina or Hunter

Since someone brought up Atom Voyages, I would suggest any interesting in a Catalina read this article; Atom Voyages - Delivering a Catalina 320 to the Virgin Islands

And this is what he had to say on spade rudders:

Quote:
Although the spade rudder and narrow attachment point of the fin keel made me continually anxious, I don't know of any specific cases where they failed so the construction quality is good. A boat of this type can certainly make offshore passages in reasonable comfort and safety provided you fit her out for the task and choose your latitude, route and season carefully to avoid areas of high storm frequency.
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Old 19-12-2013, 18:29   #57
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Re: Catalina or Hunter

Since you live in Port Richey h20 why not take the factory tour Catalina offers each Wednesday afternoon @ 3:30. You'll find them at 7200 Bryan Dairy Rd in Largo, Fl.
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Old 19-12-2013, 20:03   #58
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Re: Catalina or Hunter

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hum, I'm not seeing too many Hunters or Catalinas listed. Must be a mistake on their part.
So, does that mean that Hunters or Catalinas are not suitable or capable? No, it doesn't. We looked at a lot of different boats when we were yacht shopping and they all got problems. None are perfect.

I have read this same type of thread (lots of them) when researching the forum. Everybody has their "favorite" boat and it is the best because _____________ (fill in the blank).

The best boat is the one that you can afford and that you like, has enough room to make it comfortable, fit it properly, and go cruising and enjoy yourself. If that boat is a Hunter or Catalina it'll work just fine, despite the fact that it's not on the list of Internet Super Boats.

That's my opinion.
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Old 20-12-2013, 04:07   #59
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Re: Catalina or Hunter

Like the guy said, he's pretty new at this sailing business. I doubt he'd be buying a new (ish) boat then "fitting her out" for offshore work.

He's still working up to how the jib tacks through.

As most folk know, the old full keel boats were over build and are usually a good fit for a newcomer to sailing. They can also get you out of a jam if you get caught in bad weather, and they are tough enough to handle a collision here and there with a solid object like a dock or piling. You see newcomers tend to not be the best at docking. It helps if you have an old, tough boat to learn with.

But, H20, if you do buy an older boat make sure all the hoses attached to thru hulls are good. (or the seacocks are closed) If they seem old or brittle, replace them. This includes the hoses on the stuffing box for the prop and the rudder which some boats have.
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Old 20-12-2013, 08:47   #60
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Re: Catalina or Hunter

The way I read it, the goal was to get a boat that's easy to learn to sail, then live on it for a month with a woman. In that case I'd get a Hunter because they typically got a lot of room for the length.

If a full keel is needed the old Bristols are good. I saw somebody run one of those into the rocks once with the old Westerbeke running at full throttle and it didn't hurt it. But the same boat had a problem with the mast step. It has a deck stepped mast and no real compression post going to the keel. They kind of rely on the bulkhead between the v-berth and the corner to the head to support the deck. The deck had settled with age to where the door to the v-berth had a 1" gap on one side and it rubbed on the other.

We looked at a lot of different boats, including a Hallberg Rassy Rasmus and some in the 100-150K price range. All of them needed work for cruising and/or liveaboard. I don't look at the arrangement of the furniture when we went to look at boats. I poke around in the engine room, in the bilge, beat on the hull and deck with my fist to sound out problem areas - I made the yacht broker nervous as hell when I started inspecting a prospective boat. He wanted to show us furniture and while he was telling my wife how great this boat is I was half buried in the bilge then crawl out and tell him those sea cocks in there are junk and the bilge smells like diesel fuel - where's the leak?

The point is, no matter what older boat you buy that's 20-30+ years old, it's going to have some problems that need to be fixed. Usually the fixing part ends up being more labor (and moderate skill level in fiberglass boat repairs) than materials. In all the boats we looked at, I didn't see a lot of difference in structural build quality between any of them. Only fit and finish and attention to detail in the higher end boats.
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