Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 09-01-2019, 11:52   #1
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 148
Cat to Mono for a bit more pace, but not to much listing underway?

Is there a compromise in mono hulls where some you arent always on list/lean when under way but sail a bit faster than a cat but get similar level of luxury?

I was thinking something like a Jeanneau 42D perhaps?

In comparison to a Lagoon 410 Cat
__________________

LuvSun is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-01-2019, 12:00   #2
Elvish meaning 'Far-Wanderer'
 
Palarran's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Boat - Bahamas and for SALE!!
Boat: 56' Fountaine Pajot Marquises FSBO
Posts: 2,896
Re: Cat to Mono for a bit more pace, but not to much listing underway?

Not really. They are always going to lean more and almost always going to be slower.

And remember, their keels fall off all the time
__________________

__________________
Our course is set for an uncharted sea
Dante

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...an-204234.html
Palarran is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-01-2019, 12:12   #3
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 148
Re: Cat to Mono for a bit more pace, but not to much listing underway?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Palarran View Post
Not really. They are always going to lean more and almost always going to be slower.

And remember, their keels fall off all the time

Hehe so Bias :-).

I spent 15 years in a Farr (NZ builder) 11m mono, which are more a semi race oriented hull, but not much going on in accommodation. Loved the boat. But my GF at the time couldnt handle it. So we bought a Cat and I havnt looked back. Some are real pigs. But the seawind 1160 and even the lagoon 410 arent too bad.

I just thought some Monos might list less, ie be more cruise oriented. I looked at a used jeanneau 42 on youtube being sailed back and they rarely looked like they were on the lean.
LuvSun is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-01-2019, 12:19   #4
Elvish meaning 'Far-Wanderer'
 
Palarran's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Boat - Bahamas and for SALE!!
Boat: 56' Fountaine Pajot Marquises FSBO
Posts: 2,896
Re: Cat to Mono for a bit more pace, but not to much listing underway?

I know - bad me. Some do for sure, but I don't know how any can list less unless they are stabilized.

This is something you have for sure seen and experienced, but look at a full anchorage at night with a swell running. It takes zero effort to go - mono, mono, cat, mono, cat, etc. Sometimes I think "There's no way anyone is sleeping on that boat" (and grin - bad me again).
__________________
Our course is set for an uncharted sea
Dante

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...an-204234.html
Palarran is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-01-2019, 12:32   #5
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 148
Re: Cat to Mono for a bit more pace, but not to much listing underway?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Palarran View Post
I know - bad me. Some do for sure, but I don't know how any can list less unless they are stabilized.

This is something you have for sure seen and experienced, but look at a full anchorage at night with a swell running. It takes zero effort to go - mono, mono, cat, mono, cat, etc. Sometimes I think "There's no way anyone is sleeping on that boat" (and grin - bad me again).
Hehe too true.

When I was a true youngn, about 10 or so. I had a Caribe 14 with 40hp Yammy as I was a keen fisherman for trolling YT tuna and livebaiting Yellowtail Kingfish in NZ. I had a canopy, but Id park her up at night in this really nice sandy bay of an island and sleep on it. But then RIBs are a lot more stable than traditional tenders/dinghies. Loved that boat, learnt to spearfish on that boat. Oh the memories.

Thats why a good sized RIB on a yacht is important to me, so I can get in close to rocky weedy areas that the yacht I wouldnt risk. Find a shelf, throw some crushed up sea eggs (kina) over the sea edge to the sand and just snipeover that weed holding onto it until big snapper turn up to be shot. :-). Sorry Im day dreaming as its a nice day for being in the water today.
LuvSun is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-01-2019, 12:57   #6
Registered User
 
u4ea32's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Los Angeles and Maine
Boat: Olson 40
Posts: 267
Re: Cat to Mono for a bit more pace, but not to much listing underway?

I am also amazed at how few monohulls use flopper-stoppers. They really work.

Heeling is definitely a difference!

Some monohulls have dramatically better motion in heavy seas, which is when fear often causes people to reject sailing. When the bridge deck starts to slam, or the akas hit waves, then the motion on a multihull can become quite violent, with dramatically higher rates of motion than on certain monohulls.

With modern boats in the charter fleets, which are all designed to look good in brochures to people living in houses, the result is no upwind capability (use that engine!) and lousy sea handling (fat ass ends on monos, wing or aka impacts on multis).

I don't think there is much performance difference between cruising boats, mono or multi. There is a huge difference in dinghy and full race boats. The potential is for a multihull to weigh substantially less, because of no lead. But the reality is that there is another hull, and the bridge deck on a cat, or two more hulls and cross beams on a tri, and those weigh more than the ballast on the mono (again, unless we are talking about full race boats), so the weight advantage often goes the other way. The enormous difference in windage means the upwind performance often goes with the mono. So overall, I rarely see a significant performance advantage one way or the other.

And of course what we see in practice: the additional space means additional gear, which further handicaps the cruising multihull, in all the worst ways: more cost, more things break, more maintenance in exotic places, dramatically higher rig loads so higher rig and sail costs.

It does not have to be so: a MOD70 is 1.5 to 2 times the speed of a Maxi72. And 40 years ago, a 50' CSK plywood cruising cat was the same speed as 72' Windward Passage. But those CSKs were very weight sensitive, and the designers, builders, and owners knew that: load them up and they go slow and break.

For a given budget, a cruiser is very likely way better off with a monohull. If interested in performance, a SC50 instead of a 40' try or cat for example. A 70' sled instead of a 45-50 foot cruising cat. These comparisons are about the same interior volume and weight carrying ability, but the monohulls will usually be substantially faster and often easier to sail (lower rig loads). And the very low VCG (vertical center of gravity) of some deep bulb keel boats, and low windage, makes them remarkable at anchor.

The major indicator for cost of a sailboat, to build or own, is displacement x righting moment. The secondary driver for cost to build and own is the complexity of onboard systems. This is less simply because some of the systems might be non-marine, but everything to do with displacement x righting moment is certainly marine gear: glass, carbon, sails, line, deck hardware, ...
u4ea32 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-01-2019, 13:45   #7
Marine Service Provider

Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Virgin Islands
Boat: 1999 Leopard 45, 45 foot cat, 1980 Hunter 33, 33 foot monohull
Posts: 673
Re: Cat to Mono for a bit more pace, but not to much listing underway?

Quote:
Originally Posted by LuvSun View Post
Hehe so Bias :-).

I spent 15 years in a Farr (NZ builder) 11m mono, which are more a semi race oriented hull, but not much going on in accommodation. Loved the boat. But my GF at the time couldnt handle it. So we bought a Cat and I havnt looked back. Some are real pigs. But the seawind 1160 and even the lagoon 410 arent too bad.

I just thought some Monos might list less, ie be more cruise oriented. I looked at a used jeanneau 42 on youtube being sailed back and they rarely looked like they were on the lean.

They are probably motorsailing......(lPalarran, surprised you didn't catch that one )
contrail is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-01-2019, 13:52   #8
Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: New Zealand
Boat: 50 Bavaria
Posts: 376
Re: Cat to Mono for a bit more pace, but not to much listing underway?

If you stay sailing where cats usually do, i.e. 60-70 degrees off the wind or more, then there's no reason a monohull should be really leaning at all. If it is, you've probably got too much sail up or you're racing.
Tillsbury is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-01-2019, 11:39   #9
Registered User
 
Dooglas's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Oregon City, OR
Boat: 37 Uniflite Coastal Cruiser
Posts: 322
Re: Cat to Mono for a bit more pace, but not to much listing underway?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Palarran View Post
I know - bad me. Some do for sure, but I don't know how any can list less unless they are stabilized.
A shorter rig and more weight in the keel. Its physics.

And, as Tillsbury says - you don't claw to windward in a cat, no more reason why you need to claw to windward in a monohull unless you choose to.
Dooglas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-01-2019, 12:28   #10
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Queensland, Australia
Boat: None at present--between vessels. Ex Piver Loadstar 12.5 metres
Posts: 774
Re: Cat to Mono for a bit more pace, but not to much listing underway?

What you need if pace is your thing with the comfortable important is a trimaran. Something like a Simpson, Cross, Marples etc--preferably built in foam glass sandwich or solid glass.

Lotsa luck berthing it solo in a tight marina with a strong cross wind though. I always anchored out until the wind fell and the tide was manageable, then went in in reverse. One has to call up a marina person to fend off if necessary if one has no crew aboard..
Mike Banks is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-01-2019, 12:49   #11
Elvish meaning 'Far-Wanderer'
 
Palarran's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Boat - Bahamas and for SALE!!
Boat: 56' Fountaine Pajot Marquises FSBO
Posts: 2,896
Re: Cat to Mono for a bit more pace, but not to much listing underway?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Banks View Post
What you need if pace is your thing with the comfortable important is a trimaran. Something like a Simpson, Cross, Marples etc--preferably built in foam glass sandwich or solid glass.

Lotsa luck berthing it solo in a tight marina with a strong cross wind though. I always anchored out until the wind fell and the tide was manageable, then went in in reverse. One has to call up a marina person to fend off if necessary if one has no crew aboard..
I think the op was hoping to be able to actually live in the boat though.
__________________
Our course is set for an uncharted sea
Dante

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...an-204234.html
Palarran is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-01-2019, 13:46   #12
Registered User

Join Date: May 2017
Location: Katy, TX
Posts: 224
Re: Cat to Mono for a bit more pace, but not to much listing underway?

To get close to space compared to a Lagoon 410, I would think you need to go bigger than the 42, something like a Beneteau Oceanis 50. For similar years, they are similarly priced. What you lose in beam, you gain in length, although I don't know of any 50' mono that has the same sq ft as the Lagoon 410. The longer/wider 50 with the sails set correctly will not lean too much and will sail at a good speed.
leboyd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-01-2019, 15:28   #13
Moderator
 
Jim Cate's Avatar

Join Date: May 2008
Location: cruising SW Pacific
Boat: Jon Sayer 1-off 46 ft fract rig sloop strip plank in W Red Cedar
Posts: 13,686
Re: Cat to Mono for a bit more pace, but not to much listing underway?

what's with all this "leaning" and "listing"? Can't you spell "heel" (not "heal", btw)? This is a sailing forum after all!

Jim
__________________
Jim and Ann s/v Insatiable II lying Sandy Bay, Hobart, seein' the big smoke!
Jim Cate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-01-2019, 15:35   #14
Marine Service Provider

Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Virgin Islands
Boat: 1999 Leopard 45, 45 foot cat, 1980 Hunter 33, 33 foot monohull
Posts: 673
Re: Cat to Mono for a bit more pace, but not to much listing underway?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
what's with all this "leaning" and "listing"? Can't you spell "heel" (not "heal", btw)? This is a sailing forum after all!

Jim

Indeed!!!!!
contrail is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-01-2019, 17:42   #15
Elvish meaning 'Far-Wanderer'
 
Palarran's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Boat - Bahamas and for SALE!!
Boat: 56' Fountaine Pajot Marquises FSBO
Posts: 2,896
Re: Cat to Mono for a bit more pace, but not to much listing underway?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
what's with all this "leaning" and "listing"? Can't you spell "heel" (not "heal", btw)? This is a sailing forum after all!

Jim
Great point. I just haven't experienced it so don't use the term much.
__________________

__________________
Our course is set for an uncharted sea
Dante

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...an-204234.html
Palarran is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Upgrading from a Lagoon 410 for a bit more pace? LuvSun Multihull Sailboats 44 Yesterday 21:17
Cats vs Mono..why a mono Duke95 General Sailing Forum 191 28-07-2015 01:20
Mono vs Cat - Who has more sex? SaltyMonkey Monohull Sailboats 13 05-07-2015 13:07
Open cpn Installs but Does Not Open with Vista 64 bit felipe OpenCPN 3 03-06-2011 13:23



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 23:10.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.